Maniples

[Mattius]

In the current RS, at Large unit setting, hastati have 120 men +2 centurions, principes have 100 +2, and triarii have 80 +2.

The maniple size of principes and triarii were 160 +2 each, while hastati was 120 +2, which possibly had a maniple of 40 velites attached to it. It is here, http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html.

"The figures are a bit unclear, but what is known is that the hastati maniple consisted of 120 men... A maniple is defined as consisting of 160 men. (Although the hastati are supposedly had 120 per maniple. The figures are confusing. I assume that the maniple was brought its full numbers by the addition of velites. i.e. 120 hastati + 40 velites = 160 men = 1 maniple)"

Whatever the confusion, are these maniple sizes more accurate than 120, 100, 80 like currently? Is there a possibility for revision of the maniple sizes for RS 2?

Also is it possible to position the centurions one on each side of the maniple?

[rory o'kane]

errrr, no. Hastati and Principes had double the number of men that the triarii did - as i understand it, 120 men to a maniple rather than 60.... the velites were seperate. and the RTW engine doesn't scale well - the maximum number of men in a unit is 240+officers.

[ptg]

There has been some discussion on this before. I wrote alot on the organisation of the Manipular Legion previously. In effect, RS has compromised a bit for the sake of gameplay. The Legions are supposed to have less than other factions 'per stack' as they are better, or can do more with less (as in real life). Also, in relation to their seniority/elite status - generally, the better a unit is, the less men it has in RS. Again, I assume this is for gameplay purposes.

AS to the historic numbers, please see the following which I obtained from various sources:

"When the soldiers of the legion were classified as Velites, Hastati, Principes and Triarii, the cohort contained one maniple of each of the three latter denominations, together with their complement of Velites, so that when the legion contained 4000, each cohort would consist of 60 Triarii (x10=600), 120 Principes (x10=1200), 120 Hastati (x10=1200), and 100 Velites (x10=1000), in all 400 men per cohort. (Then cohort of 400x10 cohorts=4000)"

"The men belonging to each legion were separated into four divisions: 1. 1000 of the youngest and poorest were set apart to form the Velites, the light-armed troops or skirmishers of the legion. 2. 1200 who came next in age (or who were of the same age with the preceding, but more wealthy) formed the Hastati. 3. 1200, consisting of those in the full vigour of manhood, formed the Principes. 4. 600 of the oldest and most experienced formed the Triarii."

"When the number of soldiers in the legion exceeded 4000, the first three divisions were increased proportionally, but the number of the Triarii remained always the same. The Hastati, Principes, and Triarii were each divided into 10 companies, called Maniples. The Velites were not divided into companies, but were distributed equally among the Hastati, Principes, and Triarii. Each maniple was subdivided into two centuries, commanded by a centurion. Each legion had six superior officers, called Tribuni Militum. The legion was also divided into 10 cohorts; and as the cohorts were all equal to each other, the strength of the cohort varied from time to time with the strength of the legion, and thus at different periods ranged between the limits of 300 and 600."

"The Velites were not divided into companies, but were distributed equally among the Hastati, Principes, and Triarii."

Hope that helps.

[Mattius]

Can I ask where that information is from?

[Sandrus Castus]

@Mattius: If you have plenty of time to read, I would advise you to read Peter Conolly's 'Rome and Greece at War'. Very useful and a lot of images. It's all in there, if you want to know more.

[Mattius]

Ok, thanks. So I understand it's quite a long book then?

[Sandrus Castus]

Quite a long reading yes.

But I didn't read it myself completely either.

[century x]

So what you guys are saying is that the legions need to have less men in the stack.

[Patronus]

If you guys really want to know the answer to these questions. Ready polybius. He describes the pre marian legions in great detail, and is the basis of more contemporary authors such as connoly.

[ptg]

Patronus, one of those quotes IS from Polybius...!

century x, not that there needs to be less men per stack, but redistributed amongst each 'class'.

I use huge scale, so that's my reference. Currently in RS1.5s the unit scales are thus:

Hastati 242
Principes 202
Triarii 162

Each RTW 'unit' thus represents TWO maniples (on Huge setting)

To be historic, they should be thus:

Hastati 242
Principes 242
Triarii 122

As you can see, the changes to the Triarii and Principes cancel each other out, thus the number of men *overall* is the *same*. I guess they made tis 'stepped' numbering (slightly less in each unit as the seniority/elite status increases) for gameplay purposes.

[Coldcall]

I think the unit sizes are close enough to create a stack that relatively accurately depicts 1 full legion. Personally i usually take 4 triarri in every stack which is just over 600 tirarri in total.

Also each legion only supposedly had 300 horse which is not alot really and can also be accurately depicted in a RS stack.

[century x]

I use huge settings. I think a full stack is as colse to a roman legion as you can get.