A small story about the state of things in Iraq.

[Garbarsardar]

For those of you who cannot bother of reading the whole story I will give a small abstract:

Coalition forces trace two bomb making insurgents in a relatively posh neighborhood north of Baghdad. How posh?

A Judge, the Chief of Police and the Commander of the Iraqi SWAT have houses around the house of the insurgents; of course they do not interfere with their work or report them.

The SAS (who collaborate with US forces) throw some flashbangs and storm the house of the two suspects. They retreat with one dead four injured. They call an airstrike which levels the house and also the house next door.

Why the house next door? Because they received fire; weapons were not found however.

Result; two suspects dead and seven females including 2 children and a baby. Allegedly killed because the suspects used them as shields:

"You don't do that; we would never shield ourselves with women and kids. It is not acceptable but they'll do it, the insurgents will do it, especially the bad ones."

But:

The senior US officer I spoke to wasn't sure if weapons were found next to the bodies of the two men who ran out of the house with the women and children - in other words, if they were insurgents or civilians.

The next days coalition forces start receiving sniper fire from the hithrtoo quiet area.

I will end this with the source's punchline:

Those deaths may be the fault of the insurgents but they are laid at the coalition's door. The SAS killed two "bombmakers". They may have created many more.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7337873.stm

[HorseArcher]

Those deaths may be the fault of the insurgents but they are laid at the coalition's door. The SAS killed two "bombmakers". They may have created many more.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7337873.stm

My metaphoric expression for this:

The Hydra

Upon reaching the swamp near Lake Lerna, where the Hydra dwelt, Hercules covered his mouth and nose with a cloth to protect himself from the poisonous fumes and fired flaming arrows into its lair, the spring of Amymone, to draw it out. He then confronted it, wielding a harvesting sickle in some early vase-paintings; Ruck and Staples have pointed out that the chthonic creature's reaction was botanical: upon cutting off each of its heads he found that two grew back, an expression of the hopelessness of such a struggle for any but the hero, Hercules.

and USA is not Hercules.

[Heinz Guderian]

I read the whole article on the BBC website ten minutesa ago. It was strange the link on the bbc said said "British SAS face Iraqi dangers" and then went on to describe this.

Nevertheless, it was a clumsy stupid operation. Surround the house and starve them out. Several women, two kids, a baby, and a SAS man would still be alive today. Bombing the house from the air when you have women and kids inside is unamerican.

"but they hide behind their women and kids!!" - i dont give a . they werent going anywhere. Dont kill women. Dont kill kids. Its light crossing the streams of the proton-packs in ghostbusters; its bad. It makes other men want to shoot coalition soldiers and tests the loyalty of Iraqi soldiers.

[Yorkshireman]

Nevertheless, it was a clumsy stupid operation.

Also in the article, from an American officer, "Hindsight is easy. They (the British forces), did everything right. They did everything they should have."

Don't take this as thinking that I find the killing, accidental or otherwise, of civilians palatable, because I don't.

[Heinz Guderian]

Also in the article, from an American officer, "Hindsight is easy. They (the British forces), did everything right. They did everything they should have."

Don't take this as thinking that I find the killing, accidental or otherwise, of civilians palatable, because I don't.

they've been there 5 years. If they did everything right, a man wouldnt have died. Hindsight is easy. But recognising and criticising a bad operation, will save lives in the future both on the occupation side and civillian side.

[Yorkshireman]

they've been there 5 years. If they did everything right, a man wouldnt have died.

Unfortunately military operations don't work like that, successful or not, soldiers will die. Thats to be expected. But I think the point here is the civilians that died and in that I'm in agreeance with you, in that respect it was a cock up. Another bad day in a dirty war.

[NaptownKnight]

Also in the article, from an American officer, "Hindsight is easy. They (the British forces), did everything right. They did everything they should have."

Don't take this as thinking that I find the killing, accidental or otherwise, of civilians palatable, because I don't.

Yorkshireman speaks the truth. The SAS did exactly what they were supposed to do. Heinz, are you actually suggesting that they surround the house and wait, in a hostile area? Far more lives could have been lost. Unfortunately, civilian deaths are a part of war. They always have been, and it's certainly not the SAS fault they used them as shields.

[Каие]

What do we expect when the USMC and SAS study this.
If at first you don't succeed, call in an air strike. — Murphy’s Laws of Combat

[s.rwitt]

Bombing the house from the air when you have women and kids inside is unamerican.

Missed all the things they did before hand to get the women and children out did you? And the resulting casualties?

Also, you have to keep in mind you are not talking about a SWAT operation here, it's a warzone.

What do we expect when the USMC and SAS study this.
If at first you don't succeed, call in an air strike. — Murphy’s Laws of Combat

Yep. Because the lives of a houseful of civilians with dug in insurgents inside aren't worth the lives of a squad of Marines/SAS. Sorry, but it's the way it works in the military.

[Каие]

Yep. Because the lives of a houseful of civilians with dug in insurgents inside aren't worth the lives of a squad of Marines/SAS. Sorry, but it's the way it works in the military.

They got pretty shot up, I wonder how much of the fighting and kills are actually from infantry as opposed to artillery and air strikes.

By the way the house was the one opposite. The civilians were not inside the bomb house. Perhaps more money needs to go into Precision missiles eh?

[Chaigidel]

@horse, yes the USA does not have the mental Will to make themselves do what is necessary-- which is burn the hydra down, and leave nothing alive.

victory is always found in survival, until we are willing to kill the entire hydra we will never win the war on anyone.

[ivan_the_terrible]

@horse, yes the USA does not have the mental Will to make themselves do what is necessary-- which is burn the hydra down, and leave nothing alive.

victory is always found in survival, until we are willing to kill the entire hydra we will never win the war on anyone.

So you're basically advocating indiscriminate killing?

"Kill them all. God will know his own."

[s.rwitt]

They got pretty shot up, I wonder how much of the fighting and kills are actually from infantry as opposed to artillery and air strikes.

Considering artillery is rarely used in cities, I'd say the majority.

By the way the house was the one opposite. The civilians were not inside the bomb house.

"An interpreter called over a tannoy for the men - there were two "targets" - to surrender, or at least to let the women and children come out. There was no reply from inside the house. "

"At one stage the coalition forces also threw "flash bangs" - percussion grenades - through the front portico to ensure there was no confusion about which house was being targeted. "

"They wanted to make sure that the people inside knew all the shouts from the tannoy weren't meant for next door, giving them every chance to surrender. This is a detail which will become important later on. "

Even if they were not inside the "bomb house", the SAS made a large and costly attempt to save their lives. What else were they supposed to do when the insurgents were shooting at them from inside the house with civilians in it? Just come back later?

Perhaps more money needs to go into Precision missiles eh?

Don't know much about the size of precision guided missiles do you?

[Каие]

Considering artillery is rarely used in cities, I'd say the majority.

Why not?

"They wanted to make sure that the people inside knew all the shouts from the tannoy weren't meant for next door, giving them every chance to surrender. This is a detail which will become important later on. "
Even if they were not inside the "bomb house", the SAS made a large and costly attempt to save their lives. What else were they supposed to do when the insurgents were shooting at them from inside the house with civilians in it? Just come back later?

Reinforcements?
By the way i understand now that it was a tough decision but if they suspected women and children, and according the the tannoy announcement they knew they were inside they should have called reinforcements as opposed to pummeling the house, in his words, when they knew the women and children were inside.
They could have been hostages.

No doubt, anger and emotion flared due to the death, casualties and ambush.

By the way, you missed this bit.
Coalition forces, including the SAS, surrounded the house, a little before 0200 local time on 26 March.

I'm sure it makes a difference, wouldn;t the civilians be sleeping, meaning they probably weren't awake until after the fighting started, its not like the SAS gave it time, they came 5 minutes of ultimatum and then they charged and blew it up.
If they had the house surrounded they could have waited right?

Don't know much about the size of precision guided missiles do you?

No sir, but the name says it all. My bad anyway it thought they missed the first house and hit the other one but it turns both houses were fired from and the terrorists were in both, so they aimed for both so they are pretty good after all.

Makes you think eh, how did the IDF misuse them in 2006 and miss?

Also i found this disturbing, the house was surrounded by a judges home, a Iraqi police chief and an Army commander.

One very damaging possibility is that the local police knew all along, and turned a blind eye as long as the bombs were intended for coalition soldiers and not their own men.

I though the Iraqi Coalition was 100% onside?

Lot of talk from people who have never been shot at.

And i;m sure you know everyones history on here, by the way you;ve been shot at and in situations like this, eh?

BarnabyJones, Exactly. How can any of us judge those actions if we never been in a situation like that?

My qualm is actually with all war, thats the problem with it, it results in Civilian deaths.

[mrmouth]

Lot of talk from people who have never been shot at.

[patrick1191]

BarnabyJones, Exactly. How can any of us judge those actions if we never been in a situation like that?

[Oswald von Wolkenstein]

Lot of talk from people who have never been shot at.

Any one can shot at, few people can speak well and intelligently about something. There is no honor in doing anything dishonest and no right way to do a wrong thing.

Find me one person who cannot be shot at. That is like be proud about being able to urinate. Experience only counts with what you do with it -- being shot at is no badge of honor -- none at all. A rat can get shot at.

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[Yorkshireman]

Any one can shot at, few people can speak well and intelligently about something. There is no honor in doing anything dishonest and no right way to do a wrong thing.

Find me one person who cannot be shot at. That is like be proud about being able to urinate. Experience only counts with what you do with it -- being shot at is no badge of honor -- none at all. A rat can get shot at.

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You really believe that? Your vast experience of being shot at leads you to this insight? No, I think it's a lot easier to just gobshite on an internet forum.

[Oswald von Wolkenstein]

You really believe that? Your vast experience of being shot at leads you to this insight? No, I think it's a lot easier to just gobshite on an internet forum.

Who cares. There's nothing special about getting shot at. In fact, it takes more intelligence to simply turn on a computer than it does to get shot at. You could send a retarded man into combat with less difficulty than you could send him online. Radically oppressive regimes both fascist and communist worship the kind of bullet-biting yahoo-ing that seems to have become in vogue in the west in last few years. Consider this though, history records speeches not bullets taken.

Again experience is not what happens to you, (like being shot at), experience is what you do with what happens to you. So yes, my vast experience has lead me to these insights. If this only thing one can do to contradict an argument that they don't like, is point back to some magical mystique that getting shot at is supposed to automatically bring --- with no verbal expression beyond that whatsoever -- to an argument. Then, for that person, that experience of getting shot at wasn't worth much at all, was it?

I'm going out back to shoot at some squirrels and I'll see if the experience turns them into political analysts.

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[NaptownKnight]

Who cares. There's nothing special about getting shot at. In fact, it takes more intelligence to simply turn on a computer than it does to get shot at. You could send a retarded man into combat with less difficulty than you could send him online. Radically oppressive regimes both fascist and communist worship the kind of bullet-biting yahoo-ing that seems to have become in vogue in the west in last few years. Consider this though, history records speeches not bullets taken.

Again experience is not what happens to you, (like being shot at), experience is what you do with what happens to you. So yes, my vast experience has lead me to these insights. If this only thing one can do to contradict an argument that they don't like, is point back to some magical mystique that getting shot at is supposed to automatically bring --- with no verbal expression beyond that whatsoever -- to an argument. Then, for that person, that experience of getting shot at wasn't worth much at all, was it?

I'm going out back to shoot at some squirrels and I'll see if the experience turns them into political analysts.

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Wow, how ignorant your statement is. Nothing compares to a true experience, and decisions have to be made based on those experiences. Your all comfy in your chair typing up all this bs, while there are people in Iraq right now, getting shot at (ie their life could end in any second). Typical armchair bs that your typing up. If it's such an inconsequential thing then allow me to shoot at you with an AK 47. I am struggling to even type up a decent rebuttal, I've never seen such ignorance.