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    Default Original Sin

    I've just watched a short film on Original Sin vs. Original Goodness, and my background in psychology backs up my view on original goodness. There was a discussion with a some family (who has a background as an altar boy, almost Roman Catholic priest) and we discussed some current political issues in his homeland. He had mentioned original sin and trailed off into a thought when I had voiced my disagreement in a civil manner. I had just stated that I disagreed and supported my views much in the same way he did his, he hurried the last few bits of his meal and walked off as quickly as he could.

    How fundamental to Christianity is the doctrine of original sin as compared to a teaching like Jesus being the son of God? Is it really offending to a Christian to hear someone say that we are born with innate goodness?

    I am just curious because if it was offending, it was most certainly done inadvertently.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Original Sin

    It's a basis of all Abrahamic faiths, not just Christianity. But it's one of those things, like the trinity, that few Christians actually understand.

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    Dunecat's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Original Sin

    Eh...

  4. #4
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by polleb View Post
    I've just watched a short film on Original Sin vs. Original Goodness, and my background in psychology backs up my view on original goodness. There was a discussion with a some family (who has a background as an altar boy, almost Roman Catholic priest) and we discussed some current political issues in his homeland. He had mentioned original sin and trailed off into a thought when I had voiced my disagreement in a civil manner. I had just stated that I disagreed and supported my views much in the same way he did his, he hurried the last few bits of his meal and walked off as quickly as he could.

    How fundamental to Christianity is the doctrine of original sin as compared to a teaching like Jesus being the son of God? Is it really offending to a Christian to hear someone say that we are born with innate goodness?

    I am just curious because if it was offending, it was most certainly done inadvertently.
    My understanding from a philosophical view, is that original sin provides a critical link between Platonic ideas expressed, for instance in the Phaedrus, and Augustinian theology. Plato postulates in the Phaedrus:

    Of the nature of the soul, though her true form be ever a theme of large and more than mortal discourse, let me speak briefly, and in a figure. And let the figure be composite-a pair of winged horses and a charioteer. Now the winged horses and the charioteers of the gods are all of them noble and of noble descent, but those of other races are mixed; the human charioteer drives his in a pair; and one of them is noble and of noble breed, and the other is ignoble and of ignoble breed; and the driving of them of necessity gives a great deal of trouble to him. I will endeavour to explain to you in what way the mortal differs from the immortal creature. The soul in her totality has the care of inanimate being everywhere, and traverses the whole heaven in divers forms appearing--when perfect and fully winged she soars upward, and orders the whole world; whereas the imperfect soul, losing her wings and drooping in her flight at last settles on the solid ground-there, finding a home, she receives an earthly frame which appears to be self-moved, but is really moved by her power; and this composition of soul and body is called a living and mortal creature. For immortal no such union can be reasonably believed to be; although fancy, not having seen nor surely known the nature of God, may imagine an immortal creature having both a body and also a soul which are united throughout all time. Let that, however, be as God wills, and be spoken of acceptably to him. And now let us ask the reason why the soul loses her wings!

    The wing is the corporeal element which is most akin to the divine, and which by nature tends to soar aloft and carry that which gravitates downwards into the upper region, which is the habitation of the gods. The divine is beauty, wisdom, goodness, and the like; and by these the wing of the soul is nourished, and grows apace; but when fed upon evil and foulness and the opposite of good, wastes and falls away. Zeus, the mighty lord, holding the reins of a winged chariot, leads the way in heaven, ordering all and taking care of all; and there follows him the array of gods and demigods, marshalled in eleven bands; Hestia alone abides at home in the house of heaven; of the rest they who are reckoned among the princely twelve march in their appointed order. They see many blessed sights in the inner heaven, and there are many ways to and fro, along which the blessed gods are passing, every one doing his own work; he may follow who will and can, for jealousy has no place in the celestial choir. But when they go to banquet and festival, then they move up the steep to the top of the vault of heaven. The chariots of the gods in even poise, obeying the rein, glide rapidly; but the others labour, for the vicious steed goes heavily, weighing down the charioteer to the earth when his steed has not been thoroughly trained:-and this is the hour of agony and extremest conflict for the soul. For the immortals, when they are at the end of their course, go forth and stand upon the outside of heaven, and the revolution of the spheres carries them round, and they behold the things beyond. But of the heaven which is above the heavens, what earthly poet ever did or ever will sing worthily? It is such as I will describe; for I must dare to speak the truth, when truth is my theme. There abides the very being with which true knowledge is concerned; the colourless, formless, intangible essence, visible only to mind, the pilot of the soul. The divine intelligence, being nurtured upon mind and pure knowledge, and the intelligence of every soul which is capable of receiving the food proper to it, rejoices at beholding reality, and once more gazing upon truth, is replenished and made glad, until the revolution of the worlds brings her round again to the same place. In the revolution she beholds justice, and temperance, and knowledge absolute, not in the form of generation or of relation, which men call existence, but knowledge absolute in existence absolute; and beholding the other true existences in like manner, and feasting upon them, she passes down into the interior of the heavens and returns home; and there the charioteer putting up his horses at the stall, gives them ambrosia to eat and nectar to drink.

    Such is the life of the gods; but of other souls, that which follows God best and is likest to him lifts the head of the charioteer into the outer world, and is carried round in the revolution, troubled indeed by the steeds, and with difficulty beholding true being; while another only rises and falls, and sees, and again fails to see by reason of the unruliness of the steeds. The rest of the souls are also longing after the upper world and they all follow, but not being strong enough they are carried round below the surface, plunging, treading on one another, each striving to be first; and there is confusion and perspiration and the extremity of effort; and many of them are lamed or have their wings broken through the ill-driving of the charioteers; and all of them after a fruitless toil, not having attained to the mysteries of true being, go away, and feed upon opinion. The reason why the souls exhibit this exceeding eagerness to behold the plain of truth is that pasturage is found there, which is suited to the highest part of the soul; and the wing on which the soul soars is nourished with this. And there is a law of Destiny, that the soul which attains any vision of truth in company with a god is preserved from harm until the next period, and if attaining always is always unharmed. But when she is unable to follow, and fails to behold the truth, and through some ill-hap sinks beneath the double load of forgetfulness and vice, and her wings fall from her and she drops to the ground, then the law ordains that this soul shall at her first birth pass, not into any other animal, but only into man; and the soul which has seen most of truth shall come to the birth as a philosopher, or artist, or some musical and loving nature; that which has seen truth in the second degree shall be some righteous king or warrior chief; the soul which is of the third class shall be a politician, or economist, or trader; the fourth shall be lover of gymnastic toils, or a physician; the fifth shall lead the life of a prophet or hierophant; to the sixth the character of poet or some other imitative artist will be assigned; to the seventh the life of an artisan or husbandman; to the eighth that of a sophist or demagogue; to the ninth that of a tyrant-all these are states of probation, in which he who does righteously improves, and he who does unrighteously, deteriorates his lot.
    The beauty of the Platonic view is quite compelling, but to a more modern view, the explanation as to why the corporeal world is fallen seems incomplete, unpersuasive. The rest of the argument - the imagination of the realm of forms - is certainly accepted, even taken for granted as part of our common conception.

    But the question of why the world is rife with death, corruption, and suffering is exactly where Original Sin comes in. And then we get the Redemption and so forth. Without Original Sin there is no link and the central storyline of Christianity goes away.
    Last edited by chriscase; April 08, 2008 at 12:40 PM.

  5. #5
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    It's a basis of all Abrahamic faiths, not just Christianity. But it's one of those things, like the trinity, that few Christians actually understand.
    Whoa, stop right there. That is a complete untruth, both that the doctrine of Original Sin (as laid out by St Augustine) is the basis of all Abrahamic faiths, and that it isn't properly understood.

    The idea that there was an original sin is a natural result of the statement that man has free will - the first sin had to happen at some point. The question then is one of what the results of the original sin are.

    In the Roman Catholic Church it is said that we inherit the guilt of original sin almost as if it were a sexually-transmitted disease from our mother. However, this is only in the Roman Catholic Church.

    The Orthodox Church, following the much older Christian tradition (and not being affected by St Augustine) says that we inherit the effects of original sin - such as the fact that there is death, disease etc. - but that we do not inherit the guilt. We are only responsible for our own actions, and Adam's original sin does not make us any more inclined to sin than we already are by our free will.

    Perhaps if you learned more about issues such as this you wouldn't be so hard on Christianity all the time? You'd have to actually read about it, though.

  6. #6
    CtrlAltDe1337's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea View Post
    Whoa, stop right there. That is a complete untruth, both that the doctrine of Original Sin (as laid out by St Augustine) is the basis of all Abrahamic faiths, and that it isn't properly understood.

    The idea that there was an original sin is a natural result of the statement that man has free will - the first sin had to happen at some point. The question then is one of what the results of the original sin are.

    In the Roman Catholic Church it is said that we inherit the guilt of original sin almost as if it were a sexually-transmitted disease from our mother. However, this is only in the Roman Catholic Church.

    The Orthodox Church, following the much older Christian tradition (and not being affected by St Augustine) says that we inherit the effects of original sin - such as the fact that there is death, disease etc. - but that we do not inherit the guilt. We are only responsible for our own actions, and Adam's original sin does not make us any more inclined to sin than we already are by our free will.

    Perhaps if you learned more about issues such as this you wouldn't be so hard on Christianity all the time? You'd have to actually read about it, though.
    I don't have time to get into a big debate, but what you are saying sounds like the Pelagian view of human nature (which, as a matter of fact, was condemmed at the Council of Orange (A.D. 529)). I agree with Augustine and I hope all Christians would agree.


  7. #7
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Re: Original Sin

    The Orthodox Church, following the much older Christian tradition (and not being affected by St Augustine) says that we inherit the effects of original sin - such as the fact that there is death, disease etc. - but that we do not inherit the guilt. We are only responsible for our own actions, and Adam's original sin does not make us any more inclined to sin than we already are by our free will.

    So you inherit the punishment but not the guilt?
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

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    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  8. #8
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Original Sin

    Since it is you who sinned under another form, you infact inherit nothing.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by polleb View Post
    I've just watched a short film on Original Sin vs. Original Goodness, and my background in psychology backs up my view on original goodness. There was a discussion with a some family (who has a background as an altar boy, almost Roman Catholic priest) and we discussed some current political issues in his homeland. He had mentioned original sin and trailed off into a thought when I had voiced my disagreement in a civil manner. I had just stated that I disagreed and supported my views much in the same way he did his, he hurried the last few bits of his meal and walked off as quickly as he could.

    How fundamental to Christianity is the doctrine of original sin as compared to a teaching like Jesus being the son of God? Is it really offending to a Christian to hear someone say that we are born with innate goodness?

    I am just curious because if it was offending, it was most certainly done inadvertently.
    Of course a baby is born with goodness, it's a baby for crying out loud, but also original sin. Jesus on the other hand, being fully man and fully divine, was not born with original sin.

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    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishman
    So you inherit the punishment but not the guilt?
    It's not punishment. It is a simple chain of effect, and I would be pleased if a non-Orthodox person would listen to this for once.

    God is the source of life. Sin is an act by which a person separates themselves from God. Hence, "The wages of sin are death." God does not desire people to die, but if people try to run away from God then that is naturally what is going to happen, and God has allowed them the freedom to do so.

  11. #11
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Re: Original Sin

    God is the source of life. Sin is an act by which a person separates themselves from God. Hence, "The wages of sin are death." God does not desire people to die, but if people try to run away from God then that is naturally what is going to happen, and God has allowed them the freedom to do so.
    So sin must exist in heaven, and thus death exists in heaven right? (Assuming you are implying that the freedom to sin is preferable to not having that freedom, meaning that it exists in heaven.)
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  12. #12
    Ramashan's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Original Sin

    God is the source of life. Sin is an act by which a person separates themselves from God. Hence, "The wages of sin are death." God does not desire people to die, but if people try to run away from God then that is naturally what is going to happen, and God has allowed them the freedom to do so.
    This sounds as though there is then a possibility for someone to live forever so long as they whole heartedly give themselves to god 100%.

    Or because of someones mistake waaaay back when, I am to suffer reprocussions of it no matter what I do in my lifetime? It seems that no matter how much good a person or generations of people can do, they are still to be punished or inheret the effects of their ancestors. Which seems rather vindictive to me.

    As for it being something someone would be offended over. it all comes down to how the individual views their faith. The more devote the more likely they will be offended by those that challenge or don't believe it.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Original Sin

    Zenith, if we inherit the effects of Adam and Eve's original sin, then how can you say, in the same sentence, that we are responsible only for our own actions? We are equally responsible for their actions, man takes on Adam's punishment of tilling the ground and woman takes on Eve's punishment of a painful childbirth.

    Unless, of course, it is all a metaphor. Then it makes a lot more sense.

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    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramashan
    This sounds as though there is then a possibility for someone to live forever so long as they whole heartedly give themselves to god 100%.
    Right on the money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishman
    So sin must exist in heaven, and thus death exists in heaven right?
    Well, this is the clever part - Heaven is the state of unity with God (think of it more as a state of being than a physical location), so no, death does not exist there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shyam Popat
    We are equally responsible for their actions, man takes on Adam's punishment of tilling the ground and woman takes on Eve's punishment of a painful childbirth.
    Well, as I just said, it isn't a punishment. Actually the Orthodox Church Fathers point out that mankind's exclusion from the Garden of Eden is not so much punishment as protection for our own sake. That is a matter of some complexity (it requires background explanation), but I can go into it further if you wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shyam Popat
    Unless, of course, it is all a metaphor. Then it makes a lot more sense.
    I don't see how it makes more sense for it to be a metaphor at all. None of the writers or the readers of either the New or Old Testaments seem to have taken it as metaphor, and besides, if it were metaphor then there would not be the fantastically sophisticated theological interplay between the two Testaments.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea View Post
    Well, this is the clever part - Heaven is the state of unity with God (think of it more as a state of being than a physical location), so no, death does not exist there.
    If sin means distance from God, but heaven means closeness to God, how can they both exist in Heaven?

    Well, as I just said, it isn't a punishment. Actually the Orthodox Church Fathers point out that mankind's exclusion from the Garden of Eden is not so much punishment as protection for our own sake. That is a matter of some complexity (it requires background explanation), but I can go into it further if you wish.
    It probably would need explanation. I'm off for now but if you post I'll check it out tomorrow.

    I don't see how it makes more sense for it to be a metaphor at all. None of the writers or the readers of either the New or Old Testaments seem to have taken it as metaphor, and besides, if it were metaphor then there would not be the fantastically sophisticated theological interplay between the two Testaments.
    Well, Adamah meaning earth, Eve meaning humanity, man being forced to till the ground and painful childbirth due to his own inherent flaws ("image of God" not God itself), etc. etc.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Shyam Popat View Post
    If sin means distance from God, but heaven means closeness to God, how can they both exist in Heaven?
    This is one area where Islam and Christianity merge, Shyam is r....r...ri...right.

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    Default Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Shyam Popat View Post
    If sin means distance from God, but heaven means closeness to God, how can they both exist in Heaven?
    God can estrange himself that He comes close to regret.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; April 10, 2008 at 05:09 PM.
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    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Re: Original Sin

    Well, this is the clever part - Heaven is the state of unity with God (think of it more as a state of being than a physical location), so no, death does not exist there.
    So we have no free will in heaven? So much for free will being better than not having it.
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  19. #19
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: Original Sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishman
    So we have no free will in heaven? So much for free will being better than not having it.
    Does nobody ever listen on these forums?

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    (think of it more as a state of being than a physical location)
    Heaven is a state that we exist in because we have exercised and exercise our free will in a certain way.

  20. #20
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Re: Original Sin

    Does nobody ever listen on these forums?
    Yes I do, but I find contradictory positions confusing.

    Heaven is a state that we exist in because we have exercised and exercise our free will in a certain way.
    Do you enjoy semantics? In this state (rather than location), can we exercise free will? If not, then this 'reward' is worse than the life before it according to Christian dogma (assuming that free will is preferable and worth the suffering in this life).

    You seem not to understand my question. You state that sin is separation from God, and heaven is connection with God, meaning we cannot sin in -the state of- heaven.

    Now, this leads to the question of why God even allowed Sin in the first place, if heaven is perfection and does not include free will.
    Last edited by Irishman; April 08, 2008 at 07:27 PM.
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

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