Norway: its faults and problems.

[Påsan]

Norway: Its faults and problems

With all this attention given to different factions in this mod, and particularly factions that people complain about (Like Lithuania) I hope I can turn the eyes on a faction up north that has serious issues when it comes to historical presentation, unit rooster and names. All of witch are the unfortunate results of the lacking historical knowledge of CA staff, and the general unwillingness of Norwegians to complain about it.. Lithuanians, I praise you!

Well, to start of easy. Norway is one of the medieval faction’s which there is most historical knowledge about, we know all about the day to day life of Norwegians, we know all about their fighting styles, we know all about the names of their units, we know all about what kind of troops and equipment were used, we know of many historical leaders, and their role among their troops. All this, thanks to the amazing will to write sagas and poems based on facts and true events found in a far off place called Iceland.

Now, some of this knowledge should be shown in a game claiming to be historically accurate and presenting Norway as one of its countries, but no, instead of the slightly technological backwards and Viking like Norway, we get Denmark with new colours. Now, for all of you non – Scandinavians, thinking “Denmark.. Norway.. What’s the difference?” - Saying that Norway and Denmark are the same, would be like saying that France and England are the same - They both use knights, right? They both have archers?

Well, to explain: In the Viking age, Denmark and Norway may have been a little similar (like the Normans and the franks was) However, in the middle ages, (which medieval: total war is all about) they pretty much had gone their separate ways.. While Denmark adopted the feudal system, had cavalry containing knights, and generally becoming like the rest of Western Europe. Norway pretty much stuck to the old ways, we never had any feudal system, no knights (!!!) no barons, lords and vassals. The peasants sat with the power in Norway. Unlike their peers in Denmark, Norwegians owned their own land, and the king had little power in their internal affairs. However, the tough landowners and their sons would answer the call to war, if the king commanded so.

The armies of Norway consisted of two main elements, the bodyguards called “Hirdmenn” and the conscripted soldiers called “Landsmenn” or “Leidgangsmenn” They were all fighting in a formation called “fylking” basically a large shieldwall.

Now on to the unhistorical Units..
Cavalry:
Norway had little or no cavalry whatsoever, I could agree to the “svenner” unit as the only one, although I have no idea where the name comes from. All the knights and bodyguards are totally unhistorical.. almost like giving samurais to Vietnam.

Infantry:
First the most disturbing: Sami Axmen
To explain to all of you who does not know what a Sami is: A Sami is a people native to northern Norway and Russia. Their main income is from herding reindeer. And they have absolutely had no need for any type of organised military ever. It is from the woodsmen and shipbuilders in eastern Norway the axemasters come from, not reindeer-riding Sami.

Huscarls: this has a bit of irony in it.. While “huskarls” may be an important warrior caste in Denmark and saxon England, in Norway, a “huskarl” was the third or fourth sons of poor farmers taking service on a farm or fishing boat. Hence the name “huskarl, a man serving on another mans house. there is absolutely no military about them.
The Norwegian equal to the Danish and Saxon huscarl, is the “Hirdmenn” a bodyguard to important persons. They had the best of equipment, and were often armed with either a greataxe or sword and shield.

Gotland footmen: you know that small Island off Sweden in the Kingdoms Teutonic campaign, the island which was one of the first missions to take for the tectonic faction? That’s Gotland.. Now what a unit of gotlenders with sweihandelers does as the elite of the NORWEGIAN army, beats me.. it would be like putting French footmen instead of gothic knights as the HRE elite.
Now apart from the obviously idiotic choice of Norwegian elite units (Sami’s and Swedish) there is a famous (in Norway at least) elite band of warriors which is really hard to miss for anyone reading about the middle ages in Norway (How CA, How!!) They called Birkbeiners, and were a band of rebels lead by a royal during and after the Norwegian civil wars. Now, these guys have a lot in common with the Sherwood bandits in “robin hood”: Apart from the “take from the rich and give to the poor” policy, the Birkbeiners lived and fought in the forests of Norway for several years, wishing to gain back the crown for the rightful heir Haakon Haakonsson (the old guy in kingdoms). Now this story may sound as a cliché, but its true, and furthermore, the birkbeiners was a unit even after the civil war was won.

So.. that was about it, anyone with further suggestions to how to improve Norway as a faction may post it here.

I only hope King Kong will read this, I have the uttermost respect for his works; However, playing Norway in its current state is a pain. So that is the reason for this large and annoying post.

[kbibs89]

wow good post (cause I learned a lot) it would be cool to see some of those units. please stick with it
+rep

[TheColdTruth]

Good luck on your quest to straighten out Norway's units and names. Worked for others on here.

[Meister Sibrand]

I agree with you. Norway pwns and needs to be fixed to make it proper!

[Stinkfloyd]

Great post! I would like to see some more unit diversity up North.

[po0tietang3366]

again, who cares about norway?

all theyve contributed is a simi-cool beatles song which made the sitar more popular in england (as if it could get any mor popular)

[Point Blank]

Yeah great post, all this sort of stuff will hopefully contribute to the evolution of the mod.

[Fenix_120]

Ok, their are four problems with your idea's.


1: Modders, you are going to have to find someone who has the time to make the changes you want


2: balance, any faction in western Europe who cannot train knights will be at a huge, huge disadvantage to every one that can.


3: the unit cap has been reached for 5.1, and in 6.0 its very nearly reached.


4: most of your unit idea's are from the early medieval age 1000 - 1100, what about 1300-1500?

I'm pretty sure that Norway had started to use Knights by the 1300's, and also that they had mostly gone to using militia units nowhere near the training or power of Denmark's late age units, so once again balance.

[Erlinggra]

Mr Eirmar i could not agree more,

2: balance, any faction in western Europe who cannot train knights will be at a huge, huge disadvantage to every one that can.

Norway shuld have knights of course, but they should be renamed as the names are ridiculous.

3: the unit cap has been reached for 5.1, and in 6.0 its very nearly reached.

However, removing 2 units unique to Norway frees up unit slots

4: most of your unit idea's are from the early medieval age 1000 - 1100, what about 1300-1500?

I'm pretty sure that Norway had started to use Knights by the 1300's, and also that they had mostly gone to using militia units nowhere near the training or power of Denmark's late age units, so once again balance.

By that time norway was a part of Denmark, Norway and Denmark have identical milita units. They also have very similar late- tire units. I am guessing Eirmar's problem is that the few unique units Norway has are historically incorrect. It would be nice to fix the incorrect things.

[Darius0101]

Ok, their are four problems with your idea's.


1: Modders, you are going to have to find someone who has the time to make the changes you want


2: balance, any faction in western Europe who cannot train knights will be at a huge, huge disadvantage to every one that can.


3: the unit cap has been reached for 5.1, and in 6.0 its very nearly reached.


4: most of your unit idea's are from the early medieval age 1000 - 1100, what about 1300-1500?

I'm pretty sure that Norway had started to use Knights by the 1300's, and also that they had mostly gone to using militia units nowhere near the training or power of Denmark's late age units, so once again balance.

Who gives a flying about 'balance'. I don't. Life at that time wasen't fair, there were pwnage factions and noob factions. So keep it like that

[obbob]

taking away norway's cavalry is like replacing the kingdom of jerusalem with the Aztecs

[ehecatzin]

taking away norway's cavalry is like replacing the kingdom of jerusalem with the Aztecs

and the Aztecs would build up a piramid in the center of Jerusalem and sacrifice everyone, cristians jews and muslims. argh you got my imagination started ><

Anyway, I wouldnt mind seeing more diversity on Northern factions, the reskin for Denmark looks awasome, if something similar to that was made for Norway it would IMHO, make it a more interesting faction to play.

And +rep, pretty interesting article you wrote there

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

Excellent article! I learned a lot! It would be great if a modder acted on this...

[Canertocks]

Norway was a poor country and most units didnt have a horse so all walked on foot.

[Gomer_Pyle]

One question... I remember in R:TW that some units had a special ability that was called something like war cry or something. Just thinking since norway seem to lack a bit of punch maybe this can be added as a bonus to the more barbaric units of the norsemen. Or maybe this is not possible in M2:TW???

[hekk]

Norway was a poor country

Yeah, though it is really strange that they made some of the most sophisticated weapons and ships of the time and ruled Iceland, Greenland, Faroe Islands, Shetland, Orkney, the Hebrides, Isle of Mann and parts of Sweden without any money. :hmmm:

[Norge]

Yeah, though it is really strange that they made some of the most sophisticated weapons and ships of the time and ruled Iceland, Greenland, Faroe Islands, Shetland, Orkney, the Hebrides, Isle of Mann and parts of Sweden without any money. :hmmm:

Obvious troll. No point in even responding to him.

[King Yngvar]

Actually, it was electoral in Norway as well. The king would go around to the various regional things, and there the free farmers would elect him -- or not.

Not from 1164 onwards...


Anyways, this is NOT about the names of the units. They are irrelevant and easy to change. If you want, I'll upload a file where I changed their names.
What needs to be done and what is hard is the skinning of the units. They look totally out of place.

Let's look at the Norse Swordsmen as an example, it has one big issue. Head gear. The unit use mail coif without upgrade and then starts using typical Western European helmets after upgrades.
What would be correct is a basic nasal helmet (think viking helmet without the eye protection). With upgrade could come a mail coif within the helmet.

And this goes for most of the other units as well.
If Gotland footmen were to be made into Hirdmen. Not only in name, but in appearance. I believe the following equipment should be given to them:

Head: Mail coif with Scandinavian nasal helmet
Torso and back: Mail hauberk with shirt and red cape with coat of arms
Shield: Round with coat of arms
Weapon: Sword

Jarls at this time were not numerious by any means, and sometimes there wouldn't even be one in Norway. But the King seemed to have the ability to appoint them, and since you play the King in the game, I think their should be a Jarl's unit.

There is. It is called the general's bodyguard of some of your named characters. A jarl's guard only makes sense with a jarl in it. I'd say your named characters are jarls.

Back on the issue of bodyguards, Norwegian king's fought on foot. Having the general's bodyguard as infantry up until around 1300 would make good sense.

[BigJake]

It was a good read and a good argument. +1 rep
hope this gets sorted.

[Naked Emperor]

In Iceland the Viking era is considered to have ended 1262, when Iceland submitted to Norway after a civil war. And until that date the Icelanders were fighting viking style.