Battle Balancing (Crossbows)

[Kennylz]

Just curious about a couple things after playing Milan. Are the Crossbows tuned down in this game, or is it all missile units in general, or is it just the increased movement speeds?

I've never played a cross-bow heavy Italian faction before and wasn't sure whether my Genoese Crossbowmen should be as innefective as they are. They rarely get a chance to deliver many shots before the enemy is making its big charge, and they can't hide behind my militias like archers could, because they shoot the crap out of their own people.

When they do get shots they rarely seem to deliver many kills.

Am I missing something with how you use crossbows in general, or did the game de-power them compared to vanilla?

[Crimson Scythe]

Just curious about a couple things after playing Milan. Are the Crossbows tuned down in this game, or is it all missile units in general, or is it just the increased movement speeds?

I've never played a cross-bow heavy Italian faction before and wasn't sure whether my Genoese Crossbowmen should be as innefective as they are. They rarely get a chance to deliver many shots before the enemy is making its big charge, and they can't hide behind my militias like archers could, because they shoot the crap out of their own people.

When they do get shots they rarely seem to deliver many kills.

Am I missing something with how you use crossbows in general, or did the game de-power them compared to vanilla?

I've found that using terrain is important with crossbow-heavy factions. Even a slight terrace (flat ground slightly higher than the flat ground in front of it) or hill (or even just a bump) does wonders for my crossbows. It's very rare that a map won't have any kind of terrain that you can use in this manner, unless you're fighting up-hill, which can be really annoying.

Deployment looks like this (X=Crossbows, I=Infantry):
___
***\X
****\__I_________Enemy

Even then, using crossbows can be tricky, though. I usually leave them on fire-at-will until the enemy is pretty close (but not engaged). As the enemy gets close to my infantry line, I'll take my crossbows off fire-at-will and begin targeting manually (issuing separate orders to each unit, otherwise they'll sometimes just shoot at the closest enemy instead of the unit I want to kill), usually sniping enemy missile units. Using this setup, it's not uncommon for my crossbows to inflict 15-20% of the casualties in a big battle (I usually use 4-6 crossbow/missile units), sometimes more if the enemy is using a lot of lightly-armoured units.

[Kennylz]

I've been having a hell of a time in DLV. For some reason I've fought about 15 battles and nearly every single one I've been fighting up-hill, as the attacker, with crap assault infantry, if any.

It was demoralizing, especially since I've 'had' to be the aggressor all those times too, (sallying in seiges, those big grey civil war armies, pillagers.) meaning they couldn't come to me unless it was three enemy stacks to my one, in which they would rush to me from three different sides to overwhelm me.

I guess I've just been having bad luck? Some of the battles I was going up big hills too. I was getting a head-ache because I had missile heavy armies yet were fighting battles where they were nearly useless. As soon as I'd put the crossbows in front of my lines to get some shots the AI would take advantage (A good thing) and flood their cavalry down the pipe, thus nullifying them, because they can barely shoot safely over my lines on flat ground, let alone uphill.

I've still got my Milan (custom historical) campaign. I wasn't aggressive enough with getting a ceasefire with HRE (wouldn't take ceasefire/trade rights/3k) so other factions piled on rather quickly, and I ended up fighting an enemy on all fronts. France, Venice, HRE, and then Sicily came in just for good measure.

I've began trying out Portugal out now, who seem to have a hell of a starting struggle themselves.

I love the increased challenge for historical campaigns, but I've come from vanilla, and light-weight mods so I have to get used to starting campaigns over and over until I 'get' the feel of DLV.

Atleast the mod has given me a lot more respect for heavy cavalry. Those guys are gods on the battlefield now.

[Crimson Scythe]

I'd say that's a bit of bad luck. I've tried Milan from time to time, but I never really liked them. If I'm in the mood for an Italian faction, it's usually Sicily, though I've enjoyed my Venetian campaigns a lot too. I've found that they have a better mix of units (especially assault infantry, with the Norman knights and the Venetian Heavy Infantry).

Don't be afraid to retreat from a battle if the terrain sucks, though. Some people don't like doing it, but I've found that it makes my campaigns less frustrating (especially with Milan).

I never sally, either, unless I have superior forces (which rarely happens in DLV anyways). Fighting a siege defence is actually a lot of fun, and a great way to win some really decisive victories. You'll need to do a little planning of the garrison, though. I usually use 4 spear militia, 2 halberd or voulge (or just town militia if the faction doesn't have them) militia, 3 pike militia, 2 missile militia (usually crossbow), my general, and a unit of cavalry (either militia or castle-raised). This is only in front line cities, though. Or just bring in a field army and do a hammer-and-anvil move.

But what version of DLV do you play? And if you're new to DLV, France is usually a good trainer faction. Has a solid mix of everything you could possibly want, except for muskets and mortars.

[Kennylz]

5.5

I don't play as France were one of the last factions I had a long, satisfying campaign with not so long ago. I was /really/ thinking of having a go with the English, having never played as them either, but I held off. For some reason I've had most of my game experiences with less popular factions.

About the sallying thing. It was mainly because I had a very weak garrison, and was using my field army to attack the assaulting army, so I still had to bring the fight to them, uphill usually.

My main reason for using Milan was their rich starting cities, crossbowmen, and Famagila Dugale. I went to custom battle to check the stats of those crossbowmen again and realized why they were so underwhelming. I was using the militia version, which is about /half/ as deadly as the actual professional version.

So I think I might go back and try Milan again, because I hate abandoning campaigns.

Funny enough, the very first faction I tested the campaign out on was Georgia, and it was a much easier start than these other two campaign attempts.

[Crimson Scythe]

Definitely sounds like a stretch of bad luck.

But if you're going to give it another go, try the terrain trick I mentioned. Oh, but make sure your crossbow units are 10+ ranks further back than your infantry line (you should be able to plop a 150-man spear unit in between with little to no overlap). It helps make sure that your entire crossbow unit is firing, and not just the back ranks, and even allows them to be useful on completely flat terrain, to some degree.

[Kennylz]

Thanks for so much help. I've decided to go back to Milan and do whatever it takes to get the ceasefire with HRE as soon as possible, then get about 4 or 5 strong allies. Get hegemony over Italy and some Islands then take out my most dangeroues enemies one at a time.

Being so defiant to HRE was my downfall in the last campaign I think, since I was playing a historical campaign and was in no position to let them keep going at me, while encouraging opportunists to attack.

Got to get out of the vanilla mind-set.

[Crimson Scythe]

No problem. Glad to be of help.

Try to grab Corsica and Sardinia ASAP, though. They're usually my first targets in any Milan campaign, since they help with the castle units and aren't nearly as vulnerable as Bern (the castle in Switzerland).

[Kennylz]

Do you play the imperial campaign, or historical campaign, and which do you reccomend?

[Crimson Scythe]

I personally don't like the garrison script at all, so I generally stick to the custom imperial campaign that doesn't have the this script. I like being able to catch a city undefended, but it evens out since I'm very slow and methodical in the way I build up my military, and I don't blitz (or very rarely, at least).

If you like the garrison script though, either the imperial or historical campaigns are quite good, though I found the latter much more exciting, since you had to start wars in order to expand most of the time. I'd recommend the historical campaign if you like a challenge, but the imperial campaign if you like to take it a bit slower.