what should happen with Belgium

[Taxandrius]

I know I'm a bit late with this thread.

THE SITUATION:
Belgium is a federal state with 3 governments: the Flemish, the Walloon and the federal. We have 3 Sprachraums: the Flemish, the French and the German. To make it more complicated: there are 3 regions: Flemish, Walloon and Brussels Capital. The leading political parties are: CD&V (chritian-democrats), Open VLD (liberal-democrats), NVA (medium-right), Vlaams Belang (far-right), and SPA (socialists) on the Flemish side. cdH (christian-democrats), Ecolo (ecologists), MR (liberals), PS (socialists), FN (nationalists) on the Walloon side.

The last federal elections in Belgium turned out to be a great victory for the Christian-Democrats, led by Yves Leterme, the previous minister-president. The former coalition of liberals and socialist lost the elections. At first, the forming of a new government seemed very easy, caus the coalition of CD&V and NVA had the upper hand. However, the Flemish side wanted a state reform and a split of the electoral district Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde (this distric should become Flemish, but Brussels is a federal region, .... ). The Walloons aren't happy with these ideas, cause these plans would mean more independance for each region and some parts of Wallonia become Flemish....
result: after 194 days, a new government is formed, but not a stable one. The majority of Belgians think this government will fall soon.
more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2...ment_formation

During the formation, the sentence "split of belgium" was used frequently
There were 3 options:

• Independance for Flanders and Wallonia
• Split Belgium and let Flanders merge with the Netherlands and Wallonia with France (the former "owners" of the territories)
• Flanders independant, Wallonia back to France

I tried to inplement a poll in this post, so what are your thoughts ?

[removeduser_487563287433]

I was under the impression that a government had now been formed?

[Taxandrius]

result: after 194 a new government is formed, but not a stable one

it is, but the future of belgium is still uncertain.

[Nick_Since_1985]

I hope we split, and tough my next argument isn't going to be classy, but the Walloons...

There I said it

EDIT: But Brussels is ours and they aint getting it...

[Holger Danske]

I hope we split, and tough my next argument isn't going to be classy, but the Walloons...

There I said it

EDIT: But Brussels is ours and they aint getting it...

Note: Brussels is EU's...

[Manco]

You forgot my option (and the option that still has the largest popular support despite all the loud shouting on the extremes) : Belgium remains as is! (with some mild electoral reforms, such as part of the federal parliament elected in a national electoral unit, the PM should be one of these offcourse)

But Brussels is ours and they aint getting it...

It hasn't been 'ours' for decades, even a century. Besides who's this 'we' and 'ours', I'm a real Fleming and I'm all for Belgium and multiculturality, does this mean I'm part of the 'we' or not? And most 'Vlaams Belangers' are Brabantic, then why are they obsessed with stuff like the 'Guldensporenslag' with which they had nothing to do, are they really Flemish? After the independance maybe we can moan and about that?
Current day Flanders is just as artificial as Belgium. They always keep complaining about the fact that we use different languages and therefore are of another culture and should have our own countries. I'm West-Flemish, nobody understands me but other West-Flemings, I guess according to Flemish right wing-politics, we West-Flemings should have our own Country?
And since when am I of a different culture than Hainaut? We've been allied and friends with it for centuries, far longer than your idea of Flanders even exists.

When one group of rejects and outcasts has been removed, we'll just find another. Who knows, maybe you'll become the unwanted element then?

@Ferrets: We have a government now, but it's a bit shaky. Too many vague promises, a budget with no leverage space, unwilling and uncooperative coalitionpartners. There's a real chance it won't last or that it won't keep it's promises (even less than your average government).

[Taxandrius]

You've got a point Maraud !
I'm no far-right -er either, but my view of Walloons has got a complete different perspective then before the political ruïnation of Belgium.
I do not support the vision of NVA or Vlaams Belang, but not only the Flemish right parties are the bad ones. The behavior of most Walloon politicians is ridiculous and chauvinistic. In this poll, the 3th option sounds the most reasonable to me, but a rational mind would choose for a 4th option, Belgium stays as it is.
However, some reformings has to be made, otherwise Belgium will never get out of the crisis and walk again the path leading to a firm and stable state.
Another point is Brussels
As Nick_Since_1985 said, Brussels used to be Flemish, or, better, used to be "Diets". Brussels had been the capital, and after that, an influential city in the duchy of Brabant. Brabant is "rightfully theirs" according to Vlaams Belang.
But those activists do not realise the "perfect Fleming" doesn't exsist, It's very unlikly that a genuine Fleming exsists, cause he'll have to hail from the original county of Flanders and have a pure bloodline, an impossiblity, with the many foreign invasions on our mind.
The search of a perfect Flanders without Walloons or foreigners, criminels and other scum is a impossible quest leading to nationalistic and fascistic policies
Do we see the parallels with NSDAP or Nazi-party ?
Do we see that the ideas of far right politicians are very similar to those of illuster figures of even darker times ?
No ! And we will never see them, although right parties walk the same path, the path of intolerance, the path of nationalism.
At all who reads this forum: the 4th option, that wasn't in the poll, is the most realistic, but not the only possibility.



Tax.
the realistic one

[The White Knight]

Why doesn't the poll include options for those who are not for a separation? Has it anything to do with the fact that the presence of such options would demonstrate that those in favour of Flemish independence are indeed in a minority?

[Taxandrius]

I know, White Knight,I explained in my previous post,
I just forgot to implement it....

[Manco]

You've got a point Maraud !
I'm no far-right -er either, but my view of Walloons has got a complete different perspective then before the political ruïnation of Belgium.
I do not support the vision of NVA or Vlaams Belang, but not only the Flemish right parties are the bad ones. The behavior of most Walloon politicians is ridiculous and chauvinistic.

True, but that's just the entire political climate in Belgium that has become more and more sensational, especially in the media. People like Mangain and Milquet know that by proclaiming outrageous and just stupid demands they'll get in the media because of the 'scandal', and thus will have a lot of voters. The exact same tactic Dewever and Leterme used prior to the elections.

However, some reformings has to be made, otherwise Belgium will never get out of the crisis and walk again the path leading to a firm and stable state.

Definitely true, a major political reform HAS to happen, even if it's only because the constitutional court ruled so. At the very least BHV will have to be solved (be it by dividing it or someting else) and the financing of the federal government has to be re-examined (either the regions will have to take over some duties without extra money, or some of the regional taxes will have to flow to the federal budget which is just too stressed at the moment)

About Brussels, I try to abstain from that discussion. The historical Brabantic connection colliding with the current day francophone (but mainly European, Turkish and (North) African immigrant-)population make this a far too emotional debate.

But there's still a good side to everything that has happened in Belgium the last few decades. Not a single shot has been fired, nor a single person killed because of the Flemish-francophone debate!
(and no this as not a stab at you, Balkans )

[Chlodwig I.]

I vote for Belgium stays Belgium no split up

[Каие]

I refuse to vote those bias crappy options where is ''stay united as belgium"?

[The White Knight]

I refuse to vote those bias crappy options where is ''stay united as belgium"?

Taxandrius has already explained he'd forgotten this option, I too had read too quickly.

[Icefrisco]

I want all of Belgium to join the Netherlands though, that wont happen so I would be happy if Flanders did so. A united Flanders and Netherlands would be an economic powerhouse.

[Blau&Gruen]

A united Flanders and Netherlands would be an economic powerhouse.

The Benelux custom and later the Benelux economic union are a kind of EU precessor organization.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelux

Look people they are not going to separate.

Na, this is a game they play now for more than two millenia. I doubt they separate ín the next following two.

[Nick_Since_1985]

I really doubt what the OP intention was for posting this poll, why give non-Belgians who have absolutely no idea of what's going on here the oppurtunity to cast their vote here? All those persons who voted 'Flanders joining Netherlands' yust proves my point, other then the same language we don't have much in common. Why swap one King for another...

@ Maraud, I'am from West Flanders to, and I have been able to track my bloodline back to around 1550.

And I repeat, Brussel is a Flemish town it has always been so and it will remain a Flemish town in the future. It doesn't mean beacause alot of Walloons live their that it's theirs now. Imagine that every German or French town where Turks form the majority would go to Turkey, that's yust NUTS...

[Manco]

@ Maraud, I'am from West Flanders to, and I have been able to track my bloodline back to around 1550.

And I repeat, Brussel is a Flemish town it has always been so and it will remain a Flemish town in the future. It doesn't mean beacause alot of Walloons live their that it's theirs now. Imagine that every German or French town where Turks form the majority would go to Turkey, that's yust NUTS...

Brussels has always been a Flemish Town? Euhm, except for the millenia it wasn't. It's only considered Flemish for about 200 years, and for somewhere between 50 and a 100 years of those two centuries the majority were francophone. Geesh, Brabant and Flanders are not the same. East- and West-Flanders have been associated this closely with the historical Brabant and Limburg, just as long as the Walloon parts (atleast as early as the 'golden age' under Burgundian rule) What's more, Brabant and Limburg were part of the HRE. Historical Flanders not, but it was closely associated with for example Hainaut.
(Sorry for al the boring history, it's just that certain groups always want to use this history to create some sort of North-South division, while historically there was more of a West-East division, if there even was one)

Besides, you should brush up your knowledge about Belgian demographics. The Frenchspeaking inhabitants of Brussels are NOT Walloons. A large part of them are various European immigrants, Turks and both Maghreb and Black Africans; those of 'Belgian' ancestry are probably mainly the native Flemish (historical brabantic people) who began to speak French at some point in history mixed with the Flemish and Walloon Bourgeoisie who had been speaking French for centuries and moved there because it was the political and economical hearthland of Belgium.

they should continue making those delicious waffles


seriously, i had no idea Belgium was so divided. Thought everyone was flemish (sorry)

Pff, in reality Belgium isn't THAT divided. It's mainly the political parties and a few very verbal people on both sides of the extremes. Don't take internetfora as a thermometer for intranational and international disputes. Otherwise WW3 would've erupted about a hundred times already and every single state would be dismantled to form new ones.

And don't worry, we'll keep making the waffles! (another reason to keep Belgium, because the best waffles come from Liège, a Walloon city )

[Nick_Since_1985]

I highly sugest you stop spreading lies Maraud and post some links to back you comments up...

For those who care see this link about the history of Brussel:

http://www.brussels.org/history/

About the name Flanders: Nobody wants to recreate Flanders as it was in 1302 (large part of northern France and southeren Netherlands).
Flanders yust evolved to what it is today (West Flanders, East Flanders, Antwerp, Northern Brabant, Limburg AND Brussels).

[Dr. Croccer]

Why would Belgium want to seperate? They've been a country for almost 150 years and I haven't heard any news from there.

If it should seperate, Flanders must go to Holland and Wallonia to France, Austria or Spain.

[Каие]

Look people they are not going to separate.