Friendly Fire Not So Friendly

[danzifuge]

i decided to post some results of a test i did concerning friendly fire and was shocked at what i found. specifically, i was interested in seeing how much friendly fire could be incurred by firing over your units.

FIRST TESTS

individual tests for friendly fire and regular kills for the three main types of missile units. this test is using four missle units firing from the rear accompanied by four Elite African Infantry (Carthage) vs. four Armoured Hoplites (Syracuse). the missle units never particpated in melee combat. i did not chase down the enemy or target the enemy after routs. the fourth result is without missle units.

_____________________Number/Attack/Missle/Charge/Defense
Elite African Infantry______220___40____17____18*____69
Armoured Hoplites________222___38____--____18_____64
Phoeni Archers___________161___8_____15____2_____23
Libyan Skirmishers________221___25____17____15____45
Slingers_________________241___6_____12____2_____23

*this value represents their secondary weapon's (sword) charge rather than the 3 the game displays

_____________Missile Kills/Melee Kills/Total Kills/FF/Enemy Kills/Total Cas/FF-Missle Kills Ratio
Phoeni Archers_____218__+__538__=___756__137_+_242___=__379________1/1.6
Libyan Skirmishers__418__+__410__=___828___98_+_146___=__244________1/4.3
Slingers__________ 336__+__587__=___923__347_+_324___=__671________1/1
___---------_______---_____837__= ___837__---___490___=__490________-----

SECOND BATCH OF TESTS (4/01)

_____________Missile Kills/Melee Kills/Total Kills/FF/Enemy Kills/Total Cas./FF-Missle Kills Ratio
Phoeni Archers_____275__+__659__=___934__235_+_424___=__659________1/1.2
Libyan Skirmishers__460__+__354__=___814__174_+_140___=__314________1/2.6
Slingers__________ 368__+__464__=___832__241_+_361___=__602________1/1.5
___---------_______---_____821__= ___821__---___391___=__391________-----

[Mulattothrasher]

How close were your missile units to your front line? If they're too close, you get friendly fire for sure. I place mine far back, or as you said, on the flanks somewhere.

I'm sure your aware of this, but if the battlefield presents a small rise or hill, put your missile troops there with your front line below them to keep friendly fire to a minimum, if at all. Sometimes the presence of a hill determines where/how I deploy my troops.

[danzifuge]

How close were your missile units to your front line? If they're too close, you get friendly fire for sure. I place mine far back, or as you said, on the flanks somewhere.

I'm sure your aware of this, but if the battlefield presents a small rise or hill, put your missile troops there with your front line below them to keep friendly fire to a minimum, if at all. Sometimes the presence of a hill determines where/how I deploy my troops.

i'd estimate they were at medium distance as the ai was charging at me pretty fast. next time i'll be sure to move them back a bit when the front lines meet. i didn't know that distance or hills factored in, thanks

[Drtad]

i'd estimate they were at medium distance as the ai was charging at me pretty fast. next time i'll be sure to move them back a bit when the front lines meet. i didn't know that distance or hills factored in, thanks

It also might be a good idea to stop firing when the lines engage in close combat to avoid friendly fire. Then try to get your archers into flanking position behind enemy lines so that they are cloberred from both sides. That's what I do, anyway.

[danzifuge]

It also might be a good idea to stop firing when the lines engage in close combat to avoid friendly fire. Then try to get your archers into flanking position behind enemy lines so that they are cloberred from both sides. That's what I do, anyway.

i understand this tactic, but the point of this thread is really to show just how dangerous friendly fire is. i'd almost go so far as to say it is unrealistic based on my new results.

[Drtad]

i understand this tactic, but the point of this thread is really to show just how dangerous friendly fire is. i'd almost go so far as to say it is unrealistic based on my new results.

Well, in general I'd have to say that missiles are a bit overpowered in RS which could contribute to that.

However, if your lines have engaged the enemy in melee combat and they are close to each other, combined with the fact that archers can only be so accurate, would cause a lot of friendly fire damage. In any case, RS can't really do anything if your tactics are endangering your own army so much.

[Mulattothrasher]

i'd estimate they were at medium distance as the ai was charging at me pretty fast. next time i'll be sure to move them back a bit when the front lines meet. i didn't know that distance or hills factored in, thanks

Concerning hills/rises with archers atop them, the arrows arch over the heads of your men and down into the enemy ranks. Once the two sides meet in hand to hand combat, the archers will often still hit your men (since the enemy is so close to them and your archer's aim in not always 100% perfect every shot) but this is not usually a big factor and is kept to a minimum.

With slingers atop a hill, the hill needs more elevation or you men need to be at the very base of the hill because sling bullets fire in a straight line (no arch over anyone or anything) and will nail whatever is in the path of the bullet.


(btw, American Psycho and We Are 138!)

[removeduser_426582376423734]

Hey, if the AI attacked you, they'll come for you, not the other way around. Place missile troops ahead of your normal troops.

[Squid]

First of all, why did you post this here and not in the Rome Workshop forum where such findings might be of use to a wider range of modders.

Second your tests don't give meaningful data because you are testing multiple types of ranged attack at the same time, meaning there is no way to figure out which is the culturprit, and you have totally excluded the third type of missle unit from your test entirely. If you want meaningful tests you have to test each of the three types of missle units seperately to see what/if any friendly fire they do.

Third, javelin units cause a very low rate of friendly fire, arrow units cause a low/medium rate of friendly fire while slinger (peltast) cause a very high rate. The reason being arrows/javelins can fire over units while rocks are thrown in a straight line through units.

EDIT: And yes the 498 would be a conincidence, since otherwise it would mean you are more effective at killing if you are being killed by missle fire.

[danzifuge]

First of all, why did you post this here and not in the Rome Workshop forum where such findings might be of use to a wider range of modders.

Second your tests don't give meaningful data because you are testing multiple types of ranged attack at the same time, meaning there is no way to figure out which is the culturprit, and you have totally excluded the third type of missle unit from your test entirely. If you want meaningful tests you have to test each of the three types of missle units seperately to see what/if any friendly fire they do.

Third, javelin units cause a very low rate of friendly fire, arrow units cause a low/medium rate of friendly fire while slinger (peltast) cause a very high rate. The reason being arrows/javelins can fire over units while rocks are thrown in a straight line through units.

1. i posted here because it concerns the roma surrectum mod and if i posted elsewhere, everyone would just say "well that's the roma surrectum mod for ya"
2. i will try out the missle units individually for my next test. the reason i was using different types of missle units to begin with was because i was kind of hoping to see what kind of damage they would dish out on an individual basis with each missle unit aiming for a different enemy unit that was in combat on a one vs. one basis. as it turned out (i should've figured), the ai doesn't like to deploy all its units in the "front line" even when it only has four.
3. i was aware of this, although i thought javelins would cause more friendly fire, volley for volley, than archers due to the archer's higher trajectory

[mattfriend0]

javlins from legionaries from rearer ranks to front line can kill more of your own men than the people your fighting to stop this i only use single line now

[danzifuge]

Concerning hills/rises with archers atop them, the arrows arch over the heads of your men and down into the enemy ranks. Once the two sides meet in hand to hand combat, the archers will often still hit your men (since the enemy is so close to them and your archer's aim in not always 100% perfect every shot) but this is not usually a big factor and is kept to a minimum.



With slingers atop a hill, the hill needs more elevation or you men need to be at the very base of the hill because sling bullets fire in a straight line (no arch over anyone or anything) and will nail whatever is in the path of the bullet.





(btw, American Psycho and We Are 138!)

check out the new results. slingers did half and half damage! archers weren't too impressive but i think that was a fluke. i conclude javs cause the least friendly fire (probably cuz of they're limited number of shots), while still doing an impressive amount of damage.



misfits died when danzig left. nonetheless the newfits got one or two listenable songs.

[NaptownKnight]

This is not a downside of RS, or RTW in general, it is very realistic. The issue is probably more evident in RS because missile fire seems to cause more casualties than normal, which again is realistic. You must place your arrow units behind your lines, slingers should be used as screening forces and put in front of your army, unless they are at a higher elevation then your front line. If you use your armies like they were historically used you will have no trouble, as friendly fire is an issue in real warfare, even to this day.

[danzifuge]

This is not a downside of RS, or RTW in general, it is very realistic. The issue is probably more evident in RS because missile fire seems to cause more casualties than normal, which again is realistic. You must place your arrow units behind your lines, slingers should be used as screening forces and put in front of your army, unless they are at a higher elevation then your front line. If you use your armies like they were historically used you will have no trouble, as friendly fire is an issue in real warfare, even to this day.

i will do a third test soon, but so far it looks like archers behind your lines are still pretty harmful, which i believe is unrealistic. i wonder if you could increase the arc of their trajectories or if increasing the distance at which they could fire would do this.

[Sgian Dubh]

i will do a third test soon, but so far it looks like archers behind your lines are still pretty harmful, which i believe is unrealistic. i wonder if you could increase the arc of their trajectories or if increasing the distance at which they could fire would do this.

Unless it is an early instance of the Russian tactic of putting machine guns behind your own troops to make sure they advance.

[NaptownKnight]

i will do a third test soon, but so far it looks like archers behind your lines are still pretty harmful, which i believe is unrealistic. i wonder if you could increase the arc of their trajectories or if increasing the distance at which they could fire would do this.

I think there is another facotr, and that is how close the enemy is. The archers will fire with a high ark if the enemy is far away, but lower their arc when the enemy is closer. Just order your archers to cease fire once the enemy is close.

[pcaravel]

This is a very interesting thread. I like the idea of quantifying something that everyone has experienced in the game. Well done danzifuge!
My tactic of using peltasts and velites is the following: I place them in loose order and in skirmish mode just in front of my main battle line (mainly legionaries) or even overlapping with it. In that way they will fire to the enemy without hitting any friendlies, but also avoid the chance of being hit by the pila of the legionaries. Once the enemy closes enough and the lines clash they retreat and I place them in close order exactly behind the battle line and de-select the skirmish option since the legionaries protect them. Their proximity to the battle line and the high arc of their volleys minimizes the chance of friendly file (but unfortunately doesn't eliminate that chance). They inflict a lot of casualties and velites are always the most experienced units in my roman armies.

[danzifuge]

This is a very interesting thread. I like the idea of quantifying something that everyone has experienced in the game. Well done danzifuge!
My tactic of using peltasts and velites is the following: I place them in loose order and in skirmish mode just in front of my main battle line (mainly legionaries) or even overlapping with it. In that way they will fire to the enemy without hitting any friendlies, but also avoid the chance of being hit by the pila of the legionaries. Once the enemy closes enough and the lines clash they retreat and I place them in close order exactly behind the battle line and de-select the skirmish option since the legionaries protect them. Their proximity to the battle line and the high arc of their volleys minimizes the chance of friendly file (but unfortunately doesn't eliminate that chance). They inflict a lot of casualties and velites are always the most experienced units in my roman armies.

thank you for the congratulations. i keep hearing the same thing "don't fire behind your men then" but that isn't the point in this thread. i'm just trying to reveal just how deadly missile units can be. i can often maneuver my missile units into good position for small engagements but large battles require moving them a great distance and risking getting attacked by cavalry. so far i'm having good success splitting my line into two and placing missle units on the far sides and middle. this too is risky because the enemy can run through the middle and attack your missile units, but if you place your missile units aways back the ai won't be so tempted to attack them right away while they engage your fronts.

close proximity i hear causes more instances of ff than say at maximum distance.

[removeduser_040219]

I know how you feel. I lost many good generals to a pilium in the back

[pcaravel]

close proximity i hear causes more instances of ff than say at maximum distance.

This may be true for slingers and archers, but my own experience tells me otherwise for peltasts and velites.

I'm playing with bi.exe. Does this have anything to do with it?