Leather Armor!!!

[Fenix_120]

I found these on you-tube and thought you guys would like to see how different types of leather armor stand up to a sharp blade.


first of all, I did not make these and the people who did are on the you-tube channel named "SkallagrimNilsson".


Secondly one must take into account that a water bottle is not quite the same "Type" of target as a living human would be...

Day one:

this is a simple 2mm thick leather padding, no more thicker than an belt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsbvhoqGEdA

This is a thicker 3mm-4mm leather strap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvVdSsgBfEk

and now a 3mm-4mm thick lammelar armor test!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyxtpeIeIpg


Day two:


this one has no testing in it, he just shows you his weapons, he introduces his Roman Spatha, a Roman Gladius, a long bladed Kukuri and an Viking style battle ax.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIWiqF9CjgY



In this one its the same old soft 3mm-4mm leather we have seen, only this time theirs two layers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jpuSzgkZN4


Now its time for boiled leather! For some reason he boiled it in water instead of wax or oil so its weaker than "cuir bouilli" but it is much stronger than normal old soft leather for sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L_EmI6V0S8



And now, the moment you have been waiting for...


Boiled Lammerlar leather!!!

NOTE: this one is also boiled in water...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLGwNY3xMjM



This is his site if you want to subscribe.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SkallagrimNilsson



So what do you guys think?

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I think he should have gotten a more stable thing to attach the leather to, but otherwise it was quite interesting, especially the last one.

[Miraj]

Great videos!

[Hounf of Culan]

Those were cool videos, the leather was much stronger than I woulda predicted, not with the direct stabs though.

[Arjun]

cool videos man.


but was it only me who thought that his cuts/slashes really sucked?..


i mean...he is just letting the blade fall on some cases..and in others i really do not see him putting much force behind his blows....

[Maelkoch]

cool videos man.


but was it only me who thought that his cuts/slashes really sucked?..


i mean...he is just letting the blade fall on some cases..and in others i really do not see him putting much force behind his blows....

Afair he specifically said that he didn't use much force (perhaps to balance the fact that the human body would resist force more than a water bottle?).

[Arjun]

Afair he specifically said that he didn't use much force (perhaps to balance the fact that the human body would resist force more than a water bottle?).

that maybe true; but regardless of the force the human body is able to resist; the resistance of the leather Armour is a constant; so by literally letting the blade "fall" on the armour he is putting only negligible force on it....a real hard swing would generate maybe 10 times the force his current method does.

and i bet that it would cut through the armour like butter; in that case


btw; he could simulate the human body better by tightly rolling a weed matt(the samurai's do) or using banana stems(*the trunks of banana trees...thought to approximate the human musculature to an amazing degree..when it comes to resistance )

[Faris ad Din]

I think there's a little confusion here - many are under the impression that in real combat melee blows should involve 100% of the strength of the body, using a WIDE, arcing or exaggerated motion. For example, swinging a sword like you're chopping firewood.

As far as I know, and I am no veteran medieval soldier, that is really a popular misconception. If you go into battle with such habits you'd be killed very quickly. Armor and powerful blows aside, speed is more important than anything - it is far better to DODGE or avoid attacks rather than try to parry them or go for a Hollywood-style glamorous up-front approach.

I'm no medieval soldier for one, but I study martial arts - and I will say that the martial arts portrayed in movies is very different from real-use combat. The fights are all "demonstration" style, carefully choreographed in which moves are shown sequentially and dramatically for audience's entertainment. Roman gladiatorial teams probably developed stunt moves to entertain the audience (the primary goal of gladiatorial fights to begin with) so as to appease them when new gladiators were in short supply to replace actual kills in the arena. The moves are broad, they are dazzling, but believe me they are impractical unless you're against a slower, weaker (and maybe stupider!) opponent. And at that, the moves/forms used when training in martial arts and then sparring (mock fights) are totally different - you would only PRACTICE with full 100% extended limb arcing blows using 100% of your force taking all the dilly dally time you like. This type of practice is excellent for improving form and increasing strength and speed, you practice kicking high and punching low. But in an actual fight that's pointless: kick low and punch high. It doesn't have as much power but it has a much higher chance of connecting to your target and it DOES hurt. It can be lethal too.

I remember seeing a History Channel program about the history of blades (knives, axes and swords) and one reenactor was featured - he purportedly practiced a form of medieval swordsmanship more closer to what was actually practiced by swordsmen placing their lives on the line. He hardly ever extends his limbs fully, and his moves are very short, sudden and fast (like more than 2-3 moves a second or 120-180 a minute). Much of the time he doesn't even use the sword by the handle, but with two hands, stabbing and jabbing with both the tip of the sword and the pommel, or the tips of the handguard. It isn't glorious, but it is practical, and you likely can use it to beat an otherwise equally fast and strong opponent who sticks to using only full blows.

Look at the animations in M2:TW. You see the swordsmen/spearmen with their shields raised, and they make SHORT jabs or swings with their weapons - just like in Skallagrim Nilsson's videos, you HARDLY notice the moment when the weapon actually connects and you're left wondering whether or not it actually cut through ("what a dainty swing! Is he trying to dust it?"), but when you look at the results it actually does. When I watch melee fights between two units in M2:TW I often don't catch the moments when individual soldiers are dealt killing blows - it's over very fast.

I won't mention the 2h units, as I'm not entirely familiar with two-handed weapon tactics - making wide powerful arcing swings with axes or two-handed maces just may be effective in battle to simply overpower an opponent's guard. But I notice in M2:TW many two-handed units don't use their weapons with the expected, grunt-eliciting full bodied motions, but end up using them with hands widely spaced on the weapon, making fast jabbing or parrying motions like the traditional reenactor did. As for the weapon appearing to "fall" on the target - well, that's what an axe is. Did you ever learn to use a proper full-hafted axe? You swing it by first holding it over your head with hands wide apart - one near the bottom tip and one right up against the head, and then you swing it down, sliding your top hand all the way to your bottom hand, and using gravity and the mass concentrated in the head to deliver the blow. Swords are made with balance near the hilt for ease of swinging and turning, axes are made with balance all at the head for full gravitational attack power (hence armor piercing).

Making wide swings makes too wide openings in your stance and it makes them for too long. Shorter swings mean shorter time, and the shorter distance you have to bring your limbs away from your body and then back on the return trip. Skallagrim Nilsson appears to me not to be the best practiced combat expert, he takes too long in preparing to attack his armor samples. But anyways, I hope you cleared some of your misconceptions of actual melee combat.

[Taneda Santôka]

I think there's a little confusion here - many are under the impression that in real combat melee blows should involve 100% of the strength of the body, using a WIDE, arcing or exaggerated motion. For example, swinging a sword like you're chopping firewood.

As far as I know, and I am no veteran medieval soldier, that is really a popular misconception. If you go into battle with such habits you'd be killed very quickly. Armor and powerful blows aside, speed is more important than anything - it is far better to DODGE or avoid attacks rather than try to parry them or go for a Hollywood-style glamorous up-front approach.

I agree with most of your post, except on a few points.
-First, on the battlfield, soldiers fight as units, closely together, and as such wide movements are not recommended nor possible : you won't make wide strikes, neither will you dodge strikes, you just don't have room.
-Martial arts is a study, discipline of individual combat techniques, they're useless on the battlefield, except for the reflexes, speed and strength gained from training.
-Being myself also a martial artist, I can tell you that against a proficient opponent, dodging is never the smartest move, when you parry, not only do you know where your opponent's weapon is located, but you can also decide where to direct it, since a successfull parry is funelling and controling the blow directed at you, and redirecting it where you want ; thus you gain control of your opponent's weapon.
If you dodge a poor opponent, you can use his momentum against him, but a good opponent will use his momentum to his advantage (your own disadvantage... ).
Many martial artists should take a hint from boxers : facing blows with your body instead of being afraid of them: facing knowingly the hit, thus parrying with your own body.

-But I wholly disagree with your vision of M2TW's animations, they are very wide, visisble and spectacular, mostly for far-distance visibility to please gamers.
Realistic animations would be annoying and dull.

[Fenix_120]

I would like to see him try to get through a properly Boiled leather Lammelar breast plate over a chain mail shirt...


That would be something to try...

[Miraj]

I think the force applied is fine. In an actual battle environment I think the likelihood of landing a clean strike like that is very little given you'd actually be facing a moving and defending enemy. I guess he reduced the strikes force to take that into account?

[Fenix_120]

I think when he use's the axe he puts some umph into it...

[Miraj]

Great post Faris. +rep

And +rep to Fenix for the vids.

[Serious Spamurai]

Nice post Faris, cool name too .

[Fenix_120]

Faris is Arabian for horseman...


You have alot to live up too

[Arjun]

Great Info Faris


I agree that wide swinging arcs and 100% power-stabs were never realistic in actual combat. and i never advocated that either.

I too, have no experience of medieval combat and the intricacies of such warfare. But i am a practitioner of Shotokan Karate, and have recently started learning Silambam (stick fighting) And Kendo.

I was surprised to see the amount of force generated by weapons in confined spaces. yes..it might be less than the power generated by a super-swing or whatever but a person using a weighted stick(like in Silambam and many other stick-fighting martial arts) can literally break the bones on an opponents arm easily even if he but swings only a very few degrees.





As you can see in the above picture. the the raised stick(blue sword) is only about 30degrees from level. which a very very short swing.Lets say that the sword is brought down on an enemy during combat

When it is brought down (red sword) look at the way how one hand pushes it from the top while the other pushes the sword from the bottom in the opposite direction? this creates a pivot effect; magnifying the force while making the swing super-faster than it would have been if both hands were used to press/bring the sword downward . if you have seen kendo fighting/samurai sword work do look at the way they grip the sword.

the samurai sword can slice a person's arm off with no hardship whatsoever in a 20 degree swing!! its akin to holding the sword top stationary only a feet above ur shoulder and then cutting down. this might not seem like much...but the force generated by that blow can severely damage/cut through most armor and arm...

in contrast to this...most European sword fighting techniques followed the "both arms" to bring the sword down technique which even though might generate more force at Bigger swings; was way slower and way way less powerful for short swings. single handed swords also followed the same practice cos they too did not utilize the pivot concept.

in the following pic u can see the diff between the two double-handed sword styles.the red(katana) is much more effective in confined spaces because of the way the sword is held/used vis-a-vis the other method shown on the right




Now when we talk about stabbing; yes stabbing is probably the best way to defeat-armour, but then again it all comes down the basic physics of

F=M*A

F is dependent on the Mass of the weapon and its acceleration's(loosely proportional to final speed at contact in this case)


But tis all a trade-off. the heavier the sword; the harder it is to wield (slower), while the lighter the sword; the faster is it to wield but does less damage blow-per blow.

technically one would need a lighter(yet not too light) of a sword for extended battles; when one has to take into account exhaustion and confined spaces. Lighter swords would be the best if not for their tendency to break/shatter sometimes when facing heavier swords/amour

on the other hand; one can opt for a rapier type of a sword which sucked at slashing/cutting big time but excelled at piercing,speed.

even plate armor could be pieced by a skilled rapier thrust easily but if it were to block a cut from a heavy sword; chances are that the rapier would break...


Its interesting to note that even though armor might not be penetrated; people might still die..become incapacitated due to bones breaking. Any heavy Armour needs extensive padding underneath it.this padding is NOT for extra-protection from blows(even though they did help) but to protect the wearer from secondary injuries from a blow on their armor; secondary injuries that might be fatal

we see people wearing medeival helms/helmets...but how many knew that the helmets had leather,cloth and hay padding(other padding were used too) inside it? if not for the padding even a glancing blow to the helm by a sword would leave the head of the wearer ringing.....it would be akin to poking our head inside a huge bell when the bell is being hit by a hammer!....there is no way one could even walk straight; let alone fight when and if it happened.

the same for the rest of the body too. it too was heavily padded...all of this and the padding was so much that sometimes two people were needed to mount a full-plate knight on horseback!!....and many historians believe that if a knight was de-horsed he was almost good as dead...if he could not get to his feet fast enough...and that too would be a super-hard task..given the all the weight....falling from a horse is bad enough...but imagine falling from a horse while carrying 50 pounds of weight on u!....


also a lot of medieval knight-on knight battles degenerated into something similar to mace-fights...because sometimes it was very very hard for swords to cut through heavy armour(especially when the swords have become blunt after a a few hours of heavy fighting)..so the battle turned into a bashing contest. most of the times a person died when he took a heavy blow to his body that even though did not piece the armour..probably broke some of his bones...when he was thus incapacitated/disabled, he was easy pray...



lol..i seem to have digressed....

what i meant to say is that even short stabs/cuts by swords/sticks would have been easily fatal.one need not have a 180 degree swing to generate a lot of force. even a short jab/swing would have generated enough force to penetrate Armour, and would have been way faster/easier/less tiring than huge and impractical swings BUT those short swings would have to be faster...faster than in his video perhaps??

[teh.frickin.pope]

Great Info Faris


in the following pic u can see the diff between the two double-handed sword styles.the red(katana) is much more effective in confined spaces because of the way the sword is held/used vis-a-vis the other method shown on the right

Hence the development of the cruciform sword with large pommel and crossguard, if a fellow gets too close, bash him in the face!

But tis all a trade-off. the heavier the sword; the harder it is to wield (slower), while the lighter the sword; the faster is it to wield but does less damage blow-per blow.

technically one would need a lighter(yet not too light) of a sword for extended battles; when one has to take into account exhaustion and confined spaces. Lighter swords would be the best if not for their tendency to break/shatter sometimes when facing heavier swords/amour

A properly balanced sword actually feels amazingly light and is very nimble(and no one with half a brain who would put up the money for a sword would buy a poorly balanced one), and (single-handed)swords would rarely be used against heavy armor, why risk such a pricey possession while some cheap old axe or mace will fare much better?

even plate armor could be pieced by a skilled rapier thrust easily but if it were to block a cut from a heavy sword; chances are that the rapier would break...

Yup, that's one reason to have those big, fancy handguards; punchblocking works!

we see people wearing medeival helms/helmets...but how many knew that the helmets had leather,cloth and hay padding(other padding were used too) inside it? if not for the padding even a glancing blow to the helm by a sword would leave the head of the wearer ringing.....it would be akin to poking our head inside a huge bell when the bell is being hit by a hammer!....there is no way one could even walk straight; let alone fight when and if it happened.

Too true, when me and my friends were bored during (american)football practice, we would chuck gravel at unsuspecting teammates' heads. Even in the well padded helmets it was pretty uncomfortable.

the same for the rest of the body too. it too was heavily padded...all of this and the padding was so much that sometimes two people were needed to mount a full-plate knight on horseback!!....and many historians believe that if a knight was de-horsed he was almost good as dead...if he could not get to his feet fast enough...and that too would be a super-hard task..given the all the weight....falling from a horse is bad enough...but imagine falling from a horse while carrying 50 pounds of weight on u!....

Plate armor is really not as cumbersome as most think it is, knights usually only needed help onto horses during tourneys, where they would be wearing ridiculously thick armor that was impractical for battlefields but ensured that they did not die during a sport.

[Fenix_120]

A Knights armor, be it chain or plate, never weighed more than 80 lbs.


It is claimed that the only time when Knights needed help to get on a horse or could not get up if knocked off a horse was in the 1325-1350's when it was custom to wear both a full chain-mail harness AND plate armor together.


I will on the other hand argue this point, as in WW1 an infantry man's pack could weigh up to 120 lbs and a doughboy could run and jump and fight in full combat gear, and something tells me that a medieval Knight was just a "little bit" better trained and fit than modern day humans are.


and yes, in a dense formation soldiers did not have room to swing a sword, they almost always used a thrust or the pommel.

This is why foot-soldiers swords are almost always shorter than calvary swords are.


EDIT: In fact the average Horseman's sword was nearly an entire foot longer on average, being 3-4 feet long, most Infantry blades are 2-2.5 feet long.

[Bastables]

I will on the other hand argue this point, as in WW1 an infantry man's pack could weigh up to 120 lbs and a doughboy could run and jump and fight in full combat gear, and something tells me that a medieval Knight was just a "little bit" better trained and fit than modern day humans are.

I find this hard to belive. No sane army fights and jumps in pack order. On contact or prior to contact you drop your pack and carry on with battle order which means helmat webbing and body armour, and no one jumps around a la video games. The few times advancing with packs on was tried people got massacared by MG.s or in the case of the crimea war cannons and muskets.

[Serious Spamurai]

It means Knight of the faith, I said "cool name" because "Faris" is my Arabic name.