Macedonian Name Controversy Thread (Version 2.0)

[Farnan]

Restart of the previous thread.

What is your opinion on Macedonia's name and the controversy surrounding it?

Former thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=147913

Last 4 completely on-topic posts:

you are right my friend and i've already admitted the existance of this historical debate

The thing is that i find Ferrets more interesting to argue about non-Greeknes rather than for once to support the other view(as a more objective person than i am) In one of his previous posts he said that even the Greekness of Dorians is debated...

It could be like that.But you forget to mension the numerous massacres against the local population by the invasions of the Slav people and during the 1821-1922 period


No.
I am just saying that if we were a superpower(or a state that had some dignity) this matter would be of no importance. It would have been solved with a simple demonstration of power.(Remember what THUCYDIDES says.The powerful goes forward as far as the weak allows it!)


You have to understand that this has nothing to do with nationalism.Greece is actually an antinationalist country, even when it has to be to preserve its dignity.
It is about common sense. I cannot conquer Bronx and claim that this is New York and go around printing leaflets saying that we have to liberate our brothers in Manhattan!!!
Change the words(Brob=Skopje, New York=Macedonia{geographically!}) and you'll get the picture

No I didn't. That is precisely the opposite of what I said. I said the Dorians were an example of a people that though Greek originated from outside Greece - and were perhaps only recognised as Greek after or during the Greek Dark Age when they had the "sons of Herakles" myth applied to them. Read more carefully.



Hmm. Really. And do you think the world would tolerate such warmongering? Did the world tolerate Serbian actions in Bosnia, and in Kosovo?

He said demonstration of power. Not military power. And the world did not tolerate the Serbian actions in Kossovo but it sure tolerated the Albanian actions in Kossovo. Many and many times over the years they turned a blind eye. I guess they just went with those who promised them more in the end.

[Maced0n]

NATO Expansion Should Continue

By DONALD RUMSFELD

Mr. Rumsfeld was U.S. ambassador to NATO from 1973 to 1974 and was the 13th and 21st U.S. secretary of Defense.

The administration, bipartisan majorities in Congress, and most members of NATO have expressed support for extending membership to nations in Southeastern Europe and for partnerships with those nations beyond. Why then the hold up? Aside from Russia's opposition, Greece has threatened to issue a sole veto over Macedonia's entry because Macedonia refuses to change its country name. The future of the trans-Atlantic alliance -- and its credibility as the pre-eminent political and military instrument of the world's democracies -- are too important to be constrained by narrow disputes over semantics or to intimidation tactics more befitting the last century.

[Burnum]

Jesus christ, all this over a name? No wonder the balkans are so ed up.

[nemgod]

Firstly Macedon no one actually listens to what Rumsfeld says anymore since his disastrous roll in the bush Admin.

But on topic Macedonia has been considered Greek since the ancient times. Ancient and Modern Historians say that even prominent members of FYRM. Greeks Feel that FYRM are trying to usurp it's history and take it for their own instead of using their own history which is more closely linked to Bulgarians and Serbians than it is to Greeks. Think of Canadians trying to claim Washington or Franklin or something I'm sure it would annoy the hell out of Americans.

Greece itself has tried to compromise with names like Upper, Northern or Slavic Macedonia to separate the country from Greek History and any possible territorial claims on Greek Macedonia. Especially when a FYRM PM or President (I forget which) was photographed laying reefs and a picture of the entire Macedonian area (Which included both parts in Bulgaria and Albania as well as Greece) saying that those outside of FYRM as illegally occupied areas.

[Burnum]

Firstly Macedon no one actually listens to what Rumsfeld says anymore since his disastrous roll in the bush Admin.

But on topic Macedonia has been considered Greek since the ancient times. Ancient and Modern Historians say that even prominent members of FYRM. Greeks Feel that FYRM are trying to usurp it's history and take it for their own instead of using their own history which is more closely linked to Bulgarians and Serbians than it is to Greeks. Think of Canadians trying to claim Washington or Franklin or something I'm sure it would annoy the hell out of Americans.

Greece itself has tried to compromise with names like Upper, Northern or Slavic Macedonia to separate the country from Greek History and any possible territorial claims on Greek Macedonia. Especially when a FYRM PM or President (I forget which) was photographed laying reefs and a picture of the entire Macedonian area (Which included both parts in Bulgaria and Albania as well as Greece) saying that those outside of FYRM as illegally occupied areas.

The Greek side is claiming they have the name Macedonia as a province name in northern Greece. They renamed this province in 1988, and the Republic of Macedonia existed in Yugoslavia.

It is not about the name but about the Macedonian minority living in Greece. Greece is one of the rare countries of the EU that does not recognize the phrase "minority rights." They still have a concept of a pure nation—one state, one nation, one religion, one culture, everything Greek. And they do not want to recognize that in Greece there is a Turkish,Albanian and Macedonian minority. The name issue started in 1991 because they were afraid independent Macedonia would somehow influence this minority rights issue in Greece. Therefore they insisted that Macedonia change its name. It is very undemocratic and very un-European.

It has nothing too with a name, it's all Nationalist Dick-waving. I should have known.

[Maced0n]

The Greek side is claiming they have the name Macedonia as a province name in northern Greece. They renamed this province in 1988, and the Republic of Macedonia existed in Yugoslavia.

It is not about the name but about the Macedonian minority living in Greece. Greece is one of the rare countries of the EU that does not recognize the phrase "minority rights." They still have a concept of a pure nation—one state, one nation, one religion, one culture, everything Greek. And they do not want to recognize that in Greece there is a Turkish,Albanian and Macedonian minority. The name issue started in 1991 because they were afraid independent Macedonia would somehow influence this minority rights issue in Greece. Therefore they insisted that Macedonia change its name. It is very undemocratic and very un-European.

[nemgod]

The republic of Macedonia though was only made by Tito in a way to claim Greek MAcedonian province after WW2. That was the reason he was supporting the communists in WW2, before what is FYRM was considered south Serbia and the majority considered themselves Bulgarian and treated the Bulgarians as liberators when they marched into the area during the Axis invasions.

Plus how can Greece recognize a Macedonian minority with the name Macedonian when they don't even recognize your name it would basically be legitimizing your argument which is not something they are willing to do. And why do you expect it started in 1991 it was the time you became independent. Stole a Greek Symbol and even have nationalists claiming Greek land and Greek history it's not something any country would realistically do.

Burnun it has everything to do with the name. It has a Legacy which is almost as great as rome, you have the name you almost have complete rights to the history and pride of being the people descended of Alexandros (who himself said he was Greek) I'm sure you would not be happy at all if someone took a name of an area of your country and took it's history and have people wanting your land as well

[MathiasOfAthens]

It is about the name... Macedonian is not slavic and the region isn't even ancient or traditional Macedonian territory.

The Romans called their province north of ancient Macedonia Moesia. Today the modern state of Macedonia encompasses most of the land that the Roman province of Moesia did.

What if Iraq takes the name of Babylon, or of Mesopotamia, or of Sumeria. What if Italy takes the name of the Roman Empire - they don't even speak Latin anymore. What if Russia took the name of the Roman Empire, at least they had a legitimate claim to it before lenin.

[removeduser_487563287433]

It is about the name... Macedonian is not slavic and the region isn't even ancient or traditional Macedonian territory.

The Romans called their province north of ancient Macedonia Moesia. Today the modern state of Macedonia encompasses most of the land that the Roman province of Moesia did.

What if Iraq takes the name of Babylon, or of Mesopotamia, or of Sumeria. What if Italy takes the name of the Roman Empire - they don't even speak Latin anymore. What if Russia took the name of the Roman Empire, at least they had a legitimate claim to it before lenin.

The Romans called it the province of Macedonia.



What if the English call themselves British? Oh wait they do. What if the people of the USA call themselves Americans? Crap, they do. What if the people living in Mexico call themselves Mexicans? Oh, godamnit!

[removeduser_487563287433]

Ferrets you are comparing different things,

There are totaly controversial-Britain,America-Balkans

So your argument is that there is one rule for Greece and one rule for the rest of the world?

[CDMan477]

What's in a name... really? The question at hand imo should be in regards to any legalities concerning the situation. Internationally, can a country, county, or city change its name to a corresponding name in another country? If so, what other reason for this outcry exists other than 19th century nationalism. From an Americans point of view, if Canada wanted to change its name to Wisconsin, I can’t see this type of response occurring. Americans might find it odd, but not infuriating.

Edit: Apologies, for those who don't know. Wisconsin is a U.S. state with Lake Superior and the Canadian province of Ontario to its north. I suppose Minnesota, North Dakota, etc.. would have made better examples, but I vacationed there quite a bit in my youth, so I chose Wisconsin off the top of my head. I realized my error a few hours later.

[Norge]

What's the Greek problem with a name like "Slavo-Macedonia"?
The area is known as Macedonia, its inhabitants are not Greek, but Slav... Slavo-Macedonia.

[Maced0n]

What's the Greek problem with a name like "Slavo-Macedonia"?
The area is known as Macedonia, its inhabitants are not Greek, but Slav... Slavo-Macedonia.

And why should Macedonians rename them self in something else ,to be distinguished from who ?
Is there another country with name Macedonia ? No. There are only regions XXX-Macedonia in Greece and Bulgaria and small ones in Albania and Serbia.

If Greece or Bulgaria decide to change their name in Macedonia ,maybe than they will have right to argue for "something" and like this , its all about politic and history , but not ancient history ,its about modern history in last 100 years.

[Hmmm]

And why should Macedonians rename them self in something else ,to be distinguished from who ?
Is there another country with name Macedonia ? No. There are only regions XXX-Macedonia in Greece and Bulgaria and small ones in Albania and Serbia.

If Greece or Bulgaria decide to change their name in Macedonia ,maybe than they will have right to argue for "something" and like this , its all about politic and history , but not ancient history ,its about modern history in last 100 years.

No kidding, anything else to add, captain Obvious? What else would it be about? And it is about ancient history aswell, actually. We've been through this in a number of threads in the Vestigia Vetustatis before, where you were completely unable to come up with any arguments whatsoever, besides things like "you're not real greeks, you sub-saharans" and the like.

Greece have offered that you may be called "North Macedonia", "Upper Macedonia", "Slav Macedonia" and the like. You're the ones who don't want to compromise (funny how you're also the ones who have to compromise, if you ever want to join the NATO, for example).

EDIT: I see Nemgod, it appears you got there before me, damn you

[Giorgos]

Greece have offered that you may be called "North Macedonia", "Upper Macedonia", "Slav Macedonia" and the like. You're the ones who don't want to compromise (funny how you're also the ones who have to compromise, if you ever want to join the NATO, for example).

Yes, and we've already been through why they won't compromise. Compromise will mean no future claims on Greece for them. And they can't possibly have that...

[Војвода Драгутин Кесеровић]

And why should Macedonians rename them self in something else ,to be distinguished from who ?
Is there another country with name Macedonia ? No. There are only regions XXX-Macedonia in Greece and Bulgaria and small ones in Albania and Serbia.

Nonsense, there is no region of Macedonia within the borders of the contemporary Republic of Serbia!
Your entire country was once a region of Serbia under a variation of the name - the region was called "Mаћедонија" back then.
But ever since the communists created your country (and they only did so in order to further deprive Serbia of her original statehood) there started a systematic persecution of the Serb identity (establishing the "Macedonian language" from a mere dialect, establishing the heretical "Church of Mac.)
that led to the creation of your artificial identity as a country and as a distinct ethnicity.
I understand how all this is not easy for you to comprehend and how all this must hurt you.
I do not wish to offend you by stating these historical facts,
I only wish to make things clear for the sake of puting things in their right place and for the sake of honoring the sacrifice of vast numbers of my countrymen who had been forcefully assimilated in the makebelieve "Macedonian identity" during the second half of the XX cent.
This persecution of the Serb identity continues even today in FYROM:
Serbs of the Republic of Macedonia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What's the Greek problem with a name like "Slavo-Macedonia"?
The area is known as Macedonia, its inhabitants are not Greek, but Slav... Slavo-Macedonia.

exsactly my proposition: Republic of Slavic Macedonia (Slavo-Macedonia wouldn't do grammatically)
As I elaborated allready:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...&postcount=761

[Athenean21]

And why should Macedonians rename them self in something else ,to be distinguished from who ?
Is there another country with name Macedonia ? No. There are only regions XXX-Macedonia in Greece and Bulgaria and small ones in Albania and Serbia.

If Greece or Bulgaria decide to change their name in Macedonia ,maybe than they will have right to argue for "something" and like this , its all about politic and history , but not ancient history ,its about modern history in last 100 years.

Really mate? If it is like that why you post the head of Alexander the Great and the sun of vergina? Because you play macedon in rome total war?

It is a dream that you come from Alexander. You must wake up soon or your ignorance wiil create the hole (i.e. possible war in the balkans) that will allow the turks inside Europe again.
You really are stupid people. Crazy fanatics of western (gun selling) interests. I was neutral but in these forums i have depeloped hate against you. May be this is what people want us to do!
Now tell me little historian... why you sign in with the head of alexander as avater? Are you by any chance a nationalist, or are u Greek?

[nemgod]

What's the Greek problem with a name like "Slavo-Macedonia"?
The area is known as Macedonia, its inhabitants are not Greek, but Slav... Slavo-Macedonia.

There is no problem, Greece have suggested names like "Slavo Macedonia, Upper Macedonia or northern Macedonia" all of which got shot down by FYRM. FYRM have to realise that using the name Republic of Macedonia is unacceptable and will never be allowed if they want to join EU and NATO.

[Maced0n]

There is no problem, Greece have suggested names like "Slavo Macedonia, Upper Macedonia or northern Macedonia" all of which got shot down by FYRM. FYRM have to realise that using the name Republic of Macedonia is unacceptable and will never be allowed if they want to join EU and NATO.

Lets say hypothetically you want my jacket .. you like it or whatever .
And you will like to take my jacket , you are stronger than me ,and u have a big chances to take it , but than some big guy come (USA) and you like to show your self as a good guy infront of him and you will like to start to negotiate over the jacket.

Why the hell should i negotiate over my own jacket ,?

NATO and EU is Macedonian perspective and its substantial for Macedonia to join in this organizations , but not in these conditions ... NATO can wait ,name will stay .


@Palman find/google maps from historical Macedonia ,you will see that one little part is in today Rep of Serbia .. maybe even in Rep of Kosovo.

[neoptolemos]

The Romans called it the province of Macedonia.



What if the English call themselves British? Oh wait they do. What if the people of the USA call themselves Americans? Crap, they do. What if the people living in Mexico call themselves Mexicans? Oh, godamnit!

Ferrets you are comparing different things,

There are totaly controversial-Britain,America-Balkans

What's the Greek problem with a name like "Slavo-Macedonia"?
The area is known as Macedonia, its inhabitants are not Greek, but Slav... Slavo-Macedonia.

As a Greek i can assure you that here in Greece we have no problem with the term SlavoMacedonia as their state name.in fact there was a greek suggestion in this way but FYROM refused:hmmm:


As everybody can easily understand they refused the name because their irrational territorial claims are a fact

Lets say hypothetically you want my jacket .. you like it or whatever .
And you will like to take my jacket , you are stronger than me ,and u have a big chances to take it , but than some big guy come (USA) and you like to show your self as a good guy infront of him and you will like to start to negotiate over the jacket.

Why the hell should i negotiate over my own jacket ,?

NATO and EU is Macedonian perspective and its substantial for Macedonia to join in this organizations , but not in these conditions ... NATO can wait ,name will stay .


@Palman find/google maps from historical Macedonia ,you will see that one little part is in today Rep of Serbia .. maybe even in Rep of Kosovo.

Keep your jacket SlavoMacedon.....

You know Vardaria is characterized by the famous Vardar North Wind you may catch the Floo....

We are speaking about an ancient Greek name,land,palce of honour.We negotiate for the name but we will NEVER NEGOTIATE ABOUT OUR HISTORY


Please do not triple post. Just use the edit button next time. - Trajan