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  1. #1
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default The Healing Power of the Bible

    WESTON, Wis. — Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

    An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

    She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

    The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

    She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

    "We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

    Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

    The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

    Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

    "My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

    The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

    "Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

    The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

    But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

    She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

    "We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

    The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

    Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."


    I am posting this as a follow up to a question to a couple I posted a while back, asking about religion as therapy and the rights of parents to treat children as they please.

    As you can see from the above article, this family let their child die because they believed in the 'healing power of the bible'.

    Now, in my previous thread, the general consensus was that these people are horrendous individuals, abusing their children, but I have a further question...

    Is it wrong for the Christian church itself to advocate the healing power of prayer, and religiosity (we often hear that when we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour we will be healed)?

    I believe it is entirely irresponsible to try to apply faith into practical life, and I also think that it is wrong of Christian churches to advocate a method of treatment or healing that is nothing more than superstition.


    What do you think?

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    Last edited by Irishman; March 28, 2008 at 01:18 AM.
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  2. #2
    kev-o's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    Can you post the link, please.

    Anyhow, I don't subscribe to this kind of thinking, which is known as "Christian Science". My great aunt was one and she had health problems. My family wanted her to go see a doctor, but she never did. This kind of thinking is nonsense. Its the same logic as if someone jumps off a building and expects to be saved from the fall.
    Last edited by kev-o; March 28, 2008 at 01:06 AM.

  3. #3
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    Can't you see? Your eyes are blinded! She is better now! Don't you think heaven is better?

    Seriously though, this just goes to show what fanaticism does to people. It's well known that prayer doesn't do anything physical (these sorts of cases, that AMA bypass patient studies, you know, evidence).

    These people are unfit parents, and they should have their children taken away. Just because you believe something doesn't mean that you have the right to harm others because of it.

    Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time.
    Your misplaced faith in God killed your daughter you ****ing morons.

  4. #4
    The Good's Avatar the Bad and the Ugly
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    I've heard about this before. I think they should have taken their child to a hospital, praying is good, but God uses doctors for miracles too. If at all possible, the wounded/hurt/patient should be taken to the hospital soon after the sickness or injury is noticable, not just left there. Prayer alone can heal, but God gave us common sense too. They should have prayed in addition to her being in the hospital.


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    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Donatus View Post
    I've heard about this before. I think they should have taken their child to a hospital, praying is good, but God uses doctors for miracles too. Prayer is good, but if at all possible, the wounded/hurt/patient should be taken to the hospital soon after the sickness or injury is noticable.
    God seems to do all his healing through the hands of doctors/medicine/science.

  6. #6
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing View Post
    God seems to do all his healing through the hands of doctors/medicine/science.
    weird huh.
    house of Rububula, under the patronage of Nihil, patron of Hotspur, David Deas, Freddie, Askthepizzaguy and Ketchfoop
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  7. #7
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    God was sitting in his godly armchair eating God-Doritos and watching earth. Screaming "WTF is wrong with you people?! Take your kid to the Hospital!"
    "For the humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!"

    ~Sidmen, Member of the House of Wilpuri, Patronized by pannonian

  8. #8
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    I've heard about this before. I think they should have taken their child to a hospital, praying is good, but God uses doctors for miracles too.
    Its not a miracle if a doctor does it.

    If at all possible, the wounded/hurt/patient should be taken to the hospital soon after the sickness or injury is noticable, not just left there. Prayer alone can heal, but God gave us common sense too. They should have prayed in addition to her being in the hospital.
    This is not the main question I want to ask. I know everyone will say that they should have brought their kid into the doctor.

    What I want to know, does anyone else think the church needs to stop advocating the healing power of the bible or of prayer as it clearly is no more than snake oil?
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
    What I want to know, does anyone else think the church needs to stop advocating the healing power of the bible or of prayer as it clearly is no more than snake oil?
    i agree,
    the last time the church advocated prayer for disease, europe lost a significant portion of its inhabitants (then and again, european medicine back then was compared to today)

  10. #10
    The Good's Avatar the Bad and the Ugly
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
    Its not a miracle if a doctor does it.
    It may not be a miracle in the supernatural sense, but God still uses the talents of such people to help others. Think of it that way.

    Miracles in the supernatural sense of it do happen. I've witnessed quite a few of those, and heard of many more. My grandmother has a friend who is a missionary in Nepal, and she has seen many, and I mean many miracles during her lifetime. One of these were that a young girl's arm literally grew back to an extent, although not fully. Throughout her life, her arm was shrivled...


  11. #11
    kev-o's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    What I want to know, does anyone else think the church needs to stop advocating the healing power of the bible or of prayer as it clearly is no more than snake oil?
    1.) Which Church are you speaking of. There are many sects in Christianity.

    2.) Most churches don't preach this, such as the Catholics, Lutherans, Orthodox, Anglicans, Presbyterians etc.

    3.) The people most likely to preach/follow this are fundamental evangelicals who represent the worst form of the faith.

    4.) I'm still waiting for that link.

  12. #12
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    1.) Which Church are you speaking of. There are many sects in Christianity.
    All of them.

    2.) Most churches don't preach this, such as the Catholics, Lutherans, Orthodox, Anglicans, Presbyterians etc.
    You are telling me that none of these teach the healing power of prayer?

    3.) The people most likely to preach/follow this are fundamental evangelicals who represent the worst form of the faith.
    I'm not talking about strictly forbidding doctors, I'm talking about advocating healing techniques which have no empirical basis to them.

    4.) I'm still waiting for that link.
    Try looking for it (already posted)
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  13. #13
    kev-o's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    You are telling me that none of these teach the healing power of prayer?
    All teach this, but all don't say "if you pray constantly you will be immune from disease." A lady who taught at my school had a tumorous cancer near her brain. She was a big believer in the power of prayer but she still went to the doctor and had surgery and radiation done. We prayed for her and everything. Point is the power of prayer alone isn't going to save you. You have to use your intellect combined with faith dealing with matters like this. If someone just prays and hopes the problem will go away then they aren't using their intellect. Its the same idea of someone jumping off the building. No matter how hard you pray, nothing and no one is going to save you.

    I'm not talking about strictly forbidding doctors, I'm talking about advocating healing techniques which have no empirical basis to them.
    Thats your problem, you think everything has to be part of emprical evidence in order for something to work.
    Prayer can help but it isn't a cure all. Its part of emotional healing. Alcaholics and former drug addicts do this. Former (female) porn stars have done this. Its a way to calm the mind from distress and this has been proven with meditation/prayer.

    Try looking for it
    Try making it more evident next time and not placing at the bottem.

  14. #14
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    Sola Scriptura?

    pff...........reminds me of an old filipino proverb


    "Nasa Diyos ang awa, nasa tao ang gawa."
    God helps those who help themselves.

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

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  15. #15
    kev-o's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    And it was a pope who realized that by containing the infected, it would stop spreading. If you were sick, your ass was locked up until you either got through it or died.

  16. #16
    Irishman's Avatar Let me out of my mind
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    Thats your problem, you think everything has to be part of emprical evidence in order for something to work.
    When it comes to something so important as health, yeah, I think proposed solutions should have some truth to them.

    Prayer can help but it isn't a cure all.
    Do you have evidence they help?

    Its part of emotional healing.
    So praying for someone in a different room or state helps them emotionally how?

    Alcaholics and former drug addicts do this. Former (female) porn stars have done this. Its a way to calm the mind from distress and this has been proven with meditation/prayer.
    Positive thinking goes a long way, but we are talking about prayer as a cure, praying for others. Also, there is no reason to think that this is anything more than positve thinking.

    Try making it more evident next time and not placing at the bottem.
    So sorry! *was that whole thing necessary?
    The flow of time is always cruel... its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it... A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days...

    Under the perspicacious and benevolent patronage of the great and honorable Rez and a member of S.I.N


    He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.

  17. #17
    kev-o's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    When it comes to something so important as health, yeah, I think proposed solutions should have some truth to them.
    No ****. Any rational person sees the doctor if they are ill. The difference is that some people choose to pray and see the doctor.

    Do you have evidence they help?
    http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm

    http://www.bottomlinesecrets.com/blp...ticle_id=30204

    And in case you don't know, Duke is a very prestigious college here in the States so they are reputable.

    So praying for someone in a different room or state helps them emotionally how?
    You misunderstood what I said. The person praying is getting the emotional healing. Not the person X prays for person Y and person Y is healed idea.

    Positive thinking goes a long way, but we are talking about prayer as a cure, praying for others. Also, there is no reason to think that this is anything more than positve thinking.
    Where did I say prayer is a cure? Prayer is a form of positive thinking anyway.

  18. #18
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    Prayer, at the very least, has a placebo effect - which assists in the healing process. It helps people think positively (thinking god will help them) which also helps in the recovery process.

    Therefore, prayer does help in the healing process.
    "For the humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!"

    ~Sidmen, Member of the House of Wilpuri, Patronized by pannonian

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidmen View Post
    Prayer, at the very least, has a placebo effect - which assists in the healing process. It helps people think positively (thinking god will help them) which also helps in the recovery process.

    Therefore, prayer does help in the healing process.
    Actually, they have done a scientific study to see if praying does help, so they took patients who were divided into 3 groups
    Group A: patients that didn't received any prayers
    Group B: patients that were prayed for and but didn't know about it
    Group C: patients that were prayed for and did know about it.

    Unsuprisingly, there was no difference between Group A and B
    Suprisingly, they found a slightly negative effect for Group C

  20. #20
    Dayman's Avatar Romesick
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    Default Re: The Healing Power of the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Wautd View Post
    Actually, they have done a scientific study to see if praying does help, so they took patients who were divided into 3 groups
    Group A: patients that didn't received any prayers
    Group B: patients that were prayed for and but didn't know about it
    Group C: patients that were prayed for and did know about it.

    Unsuprisingly, there was no difference between Group A and B
    Suprisingly, they found a slightly negative effect for Group C
    That's the AMA study on bypass patients.

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