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  1. #1

    Default Iraq flares up again

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    BASRA, Iraq (Reuters) - Iraq's U.S.-backed Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki vowed on Thursday that security forces would battle Shi'ite militia in Basra "to the end," despite huge demonstrations to demand his resignation.

    Mehdi Army fighters loyal to cleric Moqtada al-Sadr remained in control of much of Basra, Iraq's second biggest city and main oil hub, defying a three-day government offensive that has led to violence spreading across the south and Baghdad.

    Authorities imposed a three-day curfew in the capital to contain the clashes.

    Saboteurs blew up one of Iraq's two main oil export pipelines from Basra, cutting at least a third of the exports from the southern oilfields, a Southern Oil Company official said. U.S. oil prices briefly rose more than $1 a barrel.

    Maliki, who has traveled to Basra to oversee the crackdown, told tribal leaders it was sending "a message to all gangs that the state is in charge of the country."

    "We entered this battle with determination and we will continue to the end. No retreat. No talks. No negotiations."

    More than 130 people have been killed and hundreds wounded since the government began the operation on Tuesday, exposing deep divisions between powerful factions within Iraq's majority Shi'ite community.

    The clashes have all but wrecked a truce declared last August by Sadr, which Washington had said helped curb violence.

    The government says it is fighting "outlaws," but Sadr's followers say political parties in Maliki's government are using military force to marginalize their rivals ahead of local elections due by October.

    President George W. Bush praised Maliki's "boldness" in launching the operation and said it showed the Iraqi leader's commitment to "enforce the law in an even-handed manner."

    Tens of thousands of Sadr supporters marched in Baghdad in a massive show of force for the cleric, demanding Maliki's removal. In the vast Sadr City slum, named after the cleric's slain father, crowds of angry men chanted slogans.

    "We demand the downfall of the Maliki government. It does not represent the people. It represents Bush and Cheney," marcher Hussein Abu Ali said.

    The slum of 2 million people is in a virtual state of siege.

    "We are trapped in our homes with no water or electricity since yesterday. We can't bathe our children or wash our clothes," said a resident who gave his name as Mohammed.

    Demonstrations were also held in the Kadhimiya and Shula districts, among the largest anti-government protests Maliki's government has faced. An Interior Ministry source said hundreds of thousands took part.

    A Reuters correspondent in Basra said Iraqi forces had cordoned off seven districts but were being repelled by Mehdi Army fighters inside them. Helicopters swooped overhead.

    Reuters television pictures showed masked Mehdi fighters firing mortars, waving rocket launchers in the air and dancing with children in the streets. Some showed off captured government vehicles sprayed with Mehdi Army slogans.

    Authorities imposed curfews in other Shi'ite towns to halt the spread of the violence. Many shops in Baghdad were shut and the streets largely empty as people stayed at home.

    BOMBARDMENT

    An Interior Ministry source said 51 people had been killed and more than 200 wounded so far in Basra alone. Basra's police chief survived a roadside bomb which killed three bodyguards.

    Clashes have spread in the past two days to the southern cities of Kut, Hilla, Nassiriya, Diwaniya, Amara and Kerbala, as well as 13 predominantly Shi'ite neighborhoods of Baghdad that have a Mehdi Army presence.

    The "Green Zone" in central Baghdad came under repeated rocket attack during the day in some of the worst barrages aimed at the government and diplomatic compound in recent months. One rocket landed inside the grounds of the U.S. embassy complex.

    Many of the rockets fell short and landed in surrounding neighborhoods. The U.S. military blamed rogue elements of the Mehdi Army for the attacks, which it said killed one Iraqi and wounded 14 others.

    Forty-four people have been killed and 75 wounded in Wasit province, police chief Abdul Hanin al-Imara said. U.S. planes flew over the provincial capital Kut and gunfire rang out as troops entered the streets, a Reuters witness said.

    Ali Bustan, head of the health directorate for eastern Baghdad, said 30 bodies and more than 200 wounded had been brought to two hospitals in Sadr City.

    Reuters television pictures showed fighters in T-shirts and jeans firing rocket-propelled grenades and rifles on the streets of the northern Shaab district. Police said Sadr followers had set ablaze a building of Maliki's Dawa party.

    U.S. and Iraqi checkpoints near Sadr City came under fire, said U.S. military spokesman Lieutenant-Colonel Steven Stover.

    Gunmen also burst into the home of a government security spokesman, set it on fire and kidnapped him, police said.

    Sadr's aides say his ceasefire is still formally in place. But his followers have staged a "civil disobedience" campaign, forcing schools and shops to shut, and Sadr has threatened to declare a "civil revolt" if the crackdown is not halted.

    (Additional reporting by Aseel Kami, Wisam Mohammed, Ahmed Rasheed, Waleed Ibrahim and Ross Colvin in Baghdad; writing by Peter Graff; editing by Andrew Roche)
    Well what do you think? Seems like major fighting is on the table again. This time its a Shiite civil "war". If the Iraqi army is not able to handle the situation this would mean that US forces would have to be moved in from other areas. Perhaps the Sunnis will find a chance to pick the fighting up where they stopped.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    When isn't Iraq flared up?

    This is hopefully a place where the new Iraqi army can be broken in and earn it's wings.

    On a more human side though, this recent fighting should be quelled as soon as possible, the Iraqi people have been through enough.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    As much of a critic as I am of the war, this in all is actually a very good sign. If the Iraqi National Army can defeat the Shia militias, it means there is an actual chance that Iraq can become unified and stable without US forces.

    Until these militas are broken, the national government is only a farce, holding meetings in the Green Zone.

  4. #4
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    Hopefully we've given their government enough breathing room to establish a military that is capable of wrecking these militias. If this works out that could mean gomeover, we win.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  5. #5
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    As other have said, if there actually able to fight back at these militias there may be hope.
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    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

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  6. #6

    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    As other have said, if there actually able to fight back at these militias there may be hope.

    But to play devils advocate, if the national army doesn't sucseed and the shia militias and politicians start to back out of the government, full scale insurection would occur. The Iraqi government would have no base of support to speak of; not sunnis, not kurds, not even shiites. It would be a complete puppet government that would be overthrown the minute the US forces left. As McCain would say, we would be there for 100 years.

  7. #7
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    But to play devils advocate, if the national army doesn't sucseed and the shia militias and politicians start to back out of the government, full scale insurection would occur. The Iraqi government would have no base of support to speak of; not sunnis, not kurds, not even shiites. It would be a complete puppet government that would be overthrown the minute the US forces left. As McCain would say, we would be there for 100 years.
    all based on the idea that the US wouldn't be able to act as a safety net. Worse comes to worse the iraqi government get;s a "do over"
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    A do over? What does that mean? Dissolve the government and hold new elections? Last elections there was ~10% Sunni turnout because they felt the government was agaisnt them. If Muqtada decides he has no stake in the national government and orders a electoral boycot and there is 10% shia turnout what then?

    You'll get the same revolving door governments of South Vietnam, thats what will happen.

  9. #9
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    it means there world does not go to hell IF they fail. The US acts as a buffer.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    More like an indefinite occupier.

  11. #11
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    Maybe we're an indefinte occupier, maybe not. Nither of us know yet, that doesn't take away from the siution that if say there government does fail we are there to provide almost a "save point."

    nd being an "occupier" how is that necessarily a bad thing? Technically we play the sae role in germany and Japan and korea and several oth state yet no one has a problem there. Is this all that different? At least this time their is a physical strategic reason.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Technically we play the sae role in germany and Japan and korea and several oth state yet no one has a problem there.
    Technically you have an agreement with these countries to operate bases there. Odd definition you have of occupation.:hmmm:

  13. #13

    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    The difference is Japan, Germany, and Korea all had popularly supported post-war governments. Korea especially, but Japan also kept its emporer and West Germans desperatly wanted a government that could stand up agaisnt the soviets.

    Without the Shia coalition, the Iraqi national government has no leg to stand on.
    Last edited by Sphere; March 27, 2008 at 07:01 PM.

  14. #14
    GeneralLee's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    The difference is Japan, Germany, and Korea all had popularly supported post-war governments. Korea especially, but Japan also kept its emporer and West Germans desperatly wanted a government that could stand up agaisnt the soviets.

    Without the Shia coalition, the Iraqi national government has no leg to stand on.
    No the Shia have no leg to stand on the Kurds and sunnis are probably realizing now is the time to expand their political power. Think about it split shia parties versus solid sunni and kurd blocks. If they seize the opportunity they could greatly increase their say in government.
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  15. #15
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Technically we play the sae role in germany and Japan and korea and several oth state yet no one has a problem there.
    Nice. I see how you played with the definition of that word there, in order to make what your doing in Iraq seem justifiable and ordinary.
    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Is this all that different?
    Yes. One you have a few military bases for strategic purposes, with fully sovereign democracies, who wish for you to be there. The other, you are propping up a failed state.

    The difference is subtle though, so I can understand why you missed it.
    Last edited by Scar Face; March 27, 2008 at 06:53 PM.

  16. #16
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    Technically you have an agreement with these countries to operate bases there. Odd definition you have of occupation.
    Hes talking about that period after we conquered them, then occupied them, then rebuilt them, and forced them into being 1st world powerhouses...
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidmen View Post
    Hes talking about that period after we conquered them, then occupied them, then rebuilt them, and forced them into being 1st world powerhouses...
    Oh yeah, that's why he was talking in the present tense, right? Or maybe that was just a little slip up.

  18. #18
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidmen View Post
    Hes talking about that period after we conquered them, then occupied them, then rebuilt them, and forced them into being 1st world powerhouses...
    Which are all different situations from Iraq. Germany has the same culture as we do, they wanted peace by the end of the war. They embraced it, and we never fought an insurgency. Korea we freed from Imperialism [Japan], so we never even really conquered them- we just later saved them from Communism. As to Japan, we won a huge symbolic victory before occupation ever began, by convincing the Emperor to cooperate. They too, decided not to fight an insurgency, they backed the Military Government and then later the Democracy that followed. shikata ga nai was a popular phrase for Japan in the time, because they did not fight us. They accepted the situation. The country was stable.

    Is that at all similar to Iraq? No. We did not win a symbolic victory [perhaps with the removal of Saddam Hussein we had one, but we blew it], we do not have a shared culture and history with them as in the case of Germany, they are not required to follow us out of fear of conquest as in the case of Korea, and they can do something about it unlike Japan. The insurgency, and the failed state of Iraq, is the result of this.

    It is all together a totally different situation...every occupation of a nation is unique, and can not be applied the same.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    This is about as close to a defining moment we'll have in Iraq I think as this is a test for the Iraqi goverment. If they can successfully manage it without the US "doing it" and simply supporting them then its a good sign if they cannot then time to rethink whether the surge is worth it. Not that the surge hasnt work but rather the Iraqis would have squandered it if they are incapable of dealing with it.

  20. #20
    Captain Arrrgh!'s Avatar I'z in yer grass
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    Default Re: Iraq flares up again

    Iraq flares up again
    I really hope no one here is surprised by this.....

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