Which is more important: God's Existence or Good Deeds

[sephodwyrm]

Suppose there's an atheist that does everything prescribed in the Holy Text (not drinking, not committing adultery, not stealing, being a good person, cares for his/her parents, other old people and children and donates money to charities while leading a good austere life) but simply does not believe in the existence of God, how would this said person end up in?

I am a personal believer of DEEDS, NOT confessions.

[Dayman]

Depends on what sect of Christianity you're in.

According to some liberal Catholics you may have a chance...only if you've never heard of Jesus though.

[Ummagumma]

Bravo to you, sir.
Unfortunately, there are many followers of various sects of Christianity (The only one I can really talk about, I don't know about the multitude of others) that consider 'surrendering to God', or the 'Rebirth' or one of many other phrases to be the only 'true' path to God. It is necessary to 'join the club' in most cases - according to the views of those that define such things.

After all, If just actually being good was enough, then the whole system of organised religion would become redundant....

[Irishman]

I agree completely. If God really is moral, then he will care more about actions than beliefs, as what you believe says nothing about what type of person you are.

It does not matter whether you are a theist or atheist, what matters is sincerity, forgiveness, and compassion. - Dalai Lama

[sephodwyrm]

I agree completely. If God really is moral, then he will care more about actions than beliefs.

I have a personal opinion that "FAITH ONLY" dictum was dreamt up by someone who probably wouldn't end up in heaven based on their actions compared to the pagans.

After all, If just actually being good was enough, then the whole system of organised religion would become redundant....

Justifying outright evil actions through religion would also be wiped off the surface of this earth, hopefully.

[Chaigidel]

we all get the same reward regardless of good deeds, because whatever you do it is gods will-- therefore hitler as well as mother teresa are with god.

morals dont apply to god, nor does your sense of justice-- that being said, I dont think anyone will be "left hanging" atheists, satanists, or evangelicals no matter how distorted or corrupt your beliefs, all will be welcomed home.

[sephodwyrm]

I dont think anyone will be "left hanging" atheists, satanists, or evangelicals no matter how distorted or corrupt your beliefs, all will be welcomed home.

You mean there's no actual incentive to good deeds?
Given that deeds is where my personal moral compass revolve around.
I am not trying to understand God, you see.
I am trying to fit this within our supposed limited mortal understanding.

[Irishman]

While I believe that we all end up in the same state, that does not mean there is no incentive for good deeds. Harmful deeds cause suffering for others and you.

[chilon]

The question of "Does God exist?" is completely irrelevant and the debate has little or no value whatsoever to humanity.

[Dayman]

The question of "Does God exist?" is completely irrelevant and the debate has little or no value whatsoever to humanity.

And why is that?

[chilon]

And why is that?

I could ask "Why does the debate have value?"

In relation to this thread, the answer would be: because good deeds are infinitely more important.

the energy spent debating "God's existence" would almost always be better spent doing other things.

(although I suppose some psychopathic murderer in prison may be better off debating God's existence ;P)

[The Good]

The question of "Does God exist?" is completely irrelevant and the debate has little or no value whatsoever to humanity.

Many people, even non-Christians are on a personal (and scientific) quest to find out God's existance. That goes to show how much his existance matters. Good deeds are...good, but I believe that God created the desire to be righteous in the first place. The desire to do things you know are wrong; evil, comes from Satan.

Now you're wondering why I do believe in God. I'm going show pictures which explain why. I'll put them in a spoiler, since the images will lag the thread...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OK, those were just images of our universe. Last but not least, the only known inhabitable planet, Earth.



Now I'm going to show more pictures...from Earth itself.

Do you honestly believe that everything (by that, I mean the universe and everything within it) could have started by itself? If you believe that the universe always was, that's quite similar to the belief that there always was a God. After seeing these pictures myself, I truly saw how complex everything was about the universe, animals, insects, and landscapes. Not to mention, our world, Earth, is the only known inhabitable planet, out of millions, if not billions or more. There is so much complexity within our universe, that to deny the existance of a God is to say everything came from random chance alone, and over time, became what it is now.

The idea of a Creator may seem silly to you now, but it could be more true than you think. Just for a moment, forget about the seven day account of creation, I'm not saying it's not true, but God could have used any amount of time he wanted to accomplish the task of creating the universe. What you see all around you comes from natural resources (even computers and such...), even you were once a small spec in your mother's womb. I'm serious when I say how complex everything is. The random chance of all of this happening without the existence of a Creator is probably something like this:

0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001/100

Notice the first number one to the far right there? That's the random chance of the universe even forming in the first place. Assuming this random chance prevailed against the many odds, that would be something, but the chance is too low to have formed the universe itself. Then of course, the chance would have to prevail against the odds again, only this time, for the formation of a planet, star, moon, etcetera....then the chance would have to prevail again, only this time, for Earth, and eventually it's living, breathing creatures. My reason for not subscribing to the theories inherantly developed by atheism, is that the random chances are way too low, and have to prevail against too many odds. That's why a Creator creating makes so much more sense.

Also, think about it, all men and women living today would have to have two common ancestors in the first place, as a man and a woman are needed to give birth, and have offspring in the first place. According to the Bible (specifically Genesis), that man was called Adam, and the woman was called Eve. For the reason I mentioned above, it's necessary that we all have two common ancestors, otherwise no offspring whatsoever could have been produced. I don't see how our two common ancestors could have came from non-living matter, such as water, or some sort of slime.

Anyway, all of these reasons are why I believe in God. If you think deeply enough, and look at the world and environment around you, a Creator would make more sense than you think right now. Also, remember that there are so many fulfilled prophecies from the Bible, that it's just amazing, for instance, one prophecy (that doesn't have to do with the Messiah) fortells the destruction of an entire city, Samaria, and that it would never be rebuilt.

You can see this prophecy, and a few others here:

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/bi...-fulfilled.htm

The City of Samaria

The prophets Hosea (748 - 690 BC) and Micah (738 - 690 BC) each predicted the destruction of Samaria, the capital city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. Not only did these prophets predict violence and destruction, but they declared that this great city would become "as a heap in the field," with its stones poured down into the valley, and vineyards planted in place of its great walls, with even the foundations being removed. 10

History tells us that Sargon took Samaria by the sword in 722 BC. Later, Alexander took the city violently in 331 BC, as did Hyrcanus in 120 BC. What's remarkable is not the violent demise of Samaria and its people, but rather, some of the historic specifics of what then happened to that once great city.

Reactions upon visiting the ancient spot have been recorded for centuries. In 1697, Henry Maundrell declared: "This great city is now wholly converted into gardens, and all the tokens that remain to testify that there has ever been such a place, are only on the north side…" Floyd Hamilton continues: "To-day the top of the hill where Samaria stood is a cultivated field with the foundations of the columns marking the place where the palaces and mansions stood. At the foot of the hill, in the valley, lie the foundation stones of the city…" 11 Finally, from Van de Velde:

• Her foundations discovered, her streets ploughed up, and covered with corn fields and olive gardens… Samaria has been destroyed, but her rubbish has been thrown down into the valley; her foundation stones, those grayish ancient quadrangular stones of the time of Omri and Ahab, are discovered, and lie scattered about on the slope of the hill. 12

[Ummagumma]

The random chance of all of this happening without the existence of a Creator is probably something like this:

0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001/100

Notice the first number one to the far right there? That's the random chance of the universe even forming in the first place. Assuming this random chance prevailed against the many odds, that would be something, but the chance is too low to have formed the universe itself. Then of course, the chance would have to prevail against the odds again, only this time, for the formation of a planet, star, moon, etcetera....then the chance would have to prevail again, only this time, for Earth, and eventually it's living, breathing creatures. My reason for not subscribing to the theories inherantly developed by atheism, is that the random chances are way too low, and have to prevail against too many odds. That's why a Creator creating makes so much more sense.

Yes, the odds were slim, but conversely it appears to be a 1 in 1 shot, as it has undoubtedly happened.

Also, If you are thinking purely in terms of the improbability of any given situation, then why would the universe, with all of it's random cause and effect, be less likely than some mystical super-being, complete with the skills, abilities, knowledges and impulses required to create everything (including, presumably, itself) mystically springing into existence, making the contents of the unimaginably huge universe purely to allow very few hominid creatures to join it in some other place - that it also made.

Just looking at the required complexity of such a thing, with its manifest powers and motivations, is much less likely than it all just having happened. Sit back, think yourself lucky and enjoy the time you have. Reality is incomprehensible, but you need not give it a name and all the other baggage.

[sephodwyrm]

that does not mean there is no incentive for good deeds.

Well, religion attempts to provide extra incentives for good deeds with the concept of life-after-death, God is watching etc. But writing off good deeds of a person simply because he or she is not a believer is outright evil, IMO.

[Chaigidel]

exactly what irish said-- bad deeds only cause harm to you and the things you love; good deeds only bring good fortune to you and the things you love.

god I do not think cares about our deeds at all. ( though it does feel the results)

[sephodwyrm]

the debate has little or no value whatsoever to humanity.

This discussion is an attempt to see which is more important:
Acknowledging God's Existence vs Good Deeds

And then how so?
The Chinese folk religion of reincarnation has everyone going to hell and then face judgment. You don't go to heaven for believing in the Jade Emperor. You do go to heaven if you went through 3 cycles of reincarnation and scored well on the deeds list. Something along the lines of slaving for parents and not doing a lot of generally acknowledged evil deeds.

[kev-o]

Some sects of christianity say that salvation by faith alone is all that is required, which I'm iffy about. You can be a genocidal maniac, have faith and you are saved.

Some sects (Catholics) believe that you have to have faith and do good deeds.

Some sects believe that if you have lead a virtuous life and never heard of Jesus and whatnot, then you have a chance.

The question being asked is a false dichotomy, anyhow.

[Dayman]

Also, remember that there are so many fulfilled prophecies from the Bible, that it's just amazing, for instance, one prophecy (that doesn't have to do with the Messiah) fortells the destruction of an entire city, Samaria, and that it would never be rebuilt.

Postdiction is easy.

[Problem Sleuth]

Not to mention, our world, Earth, is the only known inhabitable planet, out of millions, if not billions or more. There is so much complexity within our universe, that to deny the existance of a God is to say everything came from random chance alone, and over time, became what it is now.

We haven't checked out that many planets. There are 700,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars observed by telescope. Seventy sextillion. How many planets have we found that can support life? So far, Earth and Gleise 581c, but let's discount Earth. We have, thus far, discovered around 270 planets if I'm not mistaken. Most of those we haven't categorized.

But let's assume all but Gleise 581c have no chance of developing life. Let's also assume Gleise 581c has a 1/1,000,000 chance of actually being habitable, as we aren't yet certain. Alright, we have a conservative estimate for how many can possibly support life, 1/270,000,000. As I'm not sure how many planets there are, let's just say there's 1 for every 10 stars; I believe that's the number, but again, not certain. Reasonable, no? Let's also assume life has an INCREDIBLY low chance of ever developing on a planet over billions of years, unimaginably so, so much that only one planet out of every hundred billion that's habitable ever develops life. Let's look at the probabilities...

70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
--------------------------------
27,000,000,000,000,000,000

According to those numbers, which you can't say are particularily kind to the idea of life being developed, about 2593 planets will develop life of some kind. From there, it's a matter of evolution.

The idea of a Creator may seem silly to you now, but it could be more true than you think. Just for a moment, forget about the seven day account of creation, I'm not saying it's not true, but God could have used any amount of time he wanted to accomplish the task of creating the universe. What you see all around you comes from natural resources (even computers and such...), even you were once a small spec in your mother's womb. I'm serious when I say how complex everything is. The random chance of all of this happening without the existence of a Creator is probably something like this:

0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001/100

Look at my numbers above.

And excuse me for changing the topic, but I just have to ask... Where did a Creator come from? Invariably, you're going to say "He/She/It has always existed". I found a little .gif to sum up an argument. Thank you interwebz.




Anyway, back on topic. For me, deeds are obviously more important than any god or goddess existing, seeing as I'm an atheist.

[wilting]

Suppose there's an atheist that does everything prescribed in the Holy Text

Well a person who did everything prescribed in the bible (for example), such as stoning disobedient children to death, wouldn't be moral at all.

So yes, deeds are more important than beliefs.