Epilektoi and Spartiatai

[Mitth'raw'nuruodo]

I was just wondering about these two units. The Epilektoi have 17 attack and 29 defense base with 779 mnai upkeep. The Spartiatai have 17 attack and 28 defense base with 849 mnai upkeep.

I have to wonder why the Spartiatai were even included. Now, before I get mugged by fanboys let me lay it down plain. They have one point less defense than the epilektoi, cost 70 more in upkeep, are only recruitable in Sparta and require the highest level barracks as opposed to the highest but one.

Were they included into the mod purely for historical accuracy? Or was it for fanboys? Don't get me wrong now, they look badass and I like them.

Also, without sounding fanboyish, would the epilektoi really be of better quality? I mean, the Agoge was still functioning at the time so the Spartiatai are still be being trained from like age 7 to be warriors. In your guys description for the Epilektoi it is noted that they are already a battle hardened older unit made up of wealthy individuals. I was just wondering how you guys decided to give them that one extra point of armor. It is no big deal for me to change something like that if it so suited me but I was just curious as to the thoughts behind the actions.

Just some thoughts on some things that seemed odd to me. Not nitpicking, just curious.

[Agent Fransis]

I too would be interested in hearing the historical resonality.

But have you checked the EDU for these two? perhaps the spartans have higher lethality, better stamina or whatnot to justify the extra cost. Also, are they numerically equal units? And also, as you say, the difference is armor. So perhaps they simply have slightly better quality armor seeing as they are wealthy guys.

And anyways, the red capes, lambda shields and bad-ass attitude (not to be confused with bad ass-attitude) more then justify any meager defence differences.

[Ludens]

I can explain the extra point of armour: Spartans wear the old-fashioned Pilos helmet which does not offer as much protection as the helmet-with-cheekguards the Epilektoi use. However, I am also not sure what their added value over epilektoi is. IIRC the Spartan agoge was discontinued after the liberation of the Messanian helots, so elite Spartan hoplites would have been similar to those of other poleis.

[Watchman]

It's a minor pricing mistake, nothing more. Not even the worst one in the EDU BTW...

[Keravnos]

A few words on the Epilektoi.

Those guys initially+most of the time were the sons of the aristocracy in each city, either landed gentry or rich merchants' sons, or in Tyrant held poleis, the trusted guards of the Tyrant. Kyriakos Gregoropoulos, a greek historian theorises that those hoplites came to being in response to the "fully professional army" that the hoplites of Sparta represented.

They would be the elites, having the best arms and armor and their place different than the "drafted" hoplite which was the big majority of those fighting. They would spend their lives training and drilling for combat and would be ready in a moments' notice. So, in most poleis those "epilektoi" would be the standing army, with everyone else in reserve. As the assault of Pyrrhos at Argos showed, there were "places allocated to defense" that the civilians of Argos would go to and arm themeselves, in the case of enemy assault.

Some mentions of them in Hoplitic history...

-Other than the "Ieros Lochos" of Thebans, and Epameinondas' peculiar ideal of "bonding" between its members (which is open to many interpretations), after the destruction of Thebes at 335 BCE by Alexandros and the re-founding of "koinon of Boioton" a force of "Epilektoi" was formed until at least the middle of 3rd century BCE.

-Argosians from the Peloponnesian war instituted a force of 1000 chosen hoplites, from the aristocracy, most of which perished in the civil war of the Aristocrats vs the Democrats of Argos, 8 months after the Epilektoi staged a coup at 418 BCE (after the loss to the Spartans at Mantineia).

-Arcadians too, after their Koinon was founded by the Theban Epameinondas and Pelopidas. However, after 363 BCE, financial troubles allowed only the richest to remain in the "Epilektoi", only those who could stay on pro bono, with only honorary awards.

-Eleians (where olympia is) would also keep a 300 strong "Epilektoi" force under arms at all times who were of Aristocratic origin. Democrats, before engaging them in civil war had created an "Epilektoi" force of their own, numbering 400 hoplites.

-In Plataiai 300 Athenian epilektoi and 300 skythian archer allies of them (which were also used as policemen in Peace time in Athens) withstood the assault of Achaimenid persian cavalry. They were called "hippeis" much like those of Sparta at the time, which meant that they could support a horse, not ride one in battle. The following could be a depiction of those.





-Later on after the Peloponnesian war loss,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_war
the "Epilektoi" force was reinstituted. It was a crack unit, from which a lot of funerary friezes have been found. Its formation was due to the need of quick response to the revolts of the Athenian allies in the islands of the Aegean rather than the neigbouring cities forming their own. That unit was in place until the end of 3rd century BCE, surviving even the abolishment of the draft for the Athenians, which was ordered by the Makedonians.

- The final epilektoi we have deffinite account for are those of Syracusians who in 460 BCE called in arms 600 of its best civillians to fend off the revolt of a mercenary unit. Even if they supposedly were exempt from work to train exclusively for war, that unit was annihilated in an ill fated assault at the Athenians when the latter besieged Syracuse.

It has been mentioned that later on Agathokles would pay for the arms and armor of his trusted guards, therefore his "epilektoi". However those can be considered a Royal guard rather than "chosen" hoplites by the rest of the polis and for its best interest. Assumption of the royal title by the last of the Tyrants who ruled over independent Syracuse, Hieron and Hieronymos, meant that this was probably the case.

Now, so far as the price in the EDU, I think that in this perticular case, the small difference in price and stats is warranted. Back then, as in now, Spartans were considered the best of the best, hence they would have to be paid more money, and it took a lifetime of practice to become one of them. Agoge and all that.

Epilektoi, on the other hand, are a product of a much more "diversified" city state, or Koinon of all the Greeks, the Koinon Hellenon. It didn't matter that you weren't born into gentry, if one had enough money, one could become member of the chosen aka "Epilektoi" hoplites and be awarded the honor that this meant. (Look up the Arcades or Arcadians higher up for more).

So, in a nutshell you could go for a "brand name" hoplites (Spartans) who just don't break and fight to a man but are more expensive and less armored than the newer ones.
Or choose the "epilektoi" instead, cheaper, heavier in armor, recruitable in a whole more provinces, but a bit more prone to abandoning the line than the Spartans.

Choices, choices...

[Irishmafia2020]

That was a fantastic explanation... I learned that my next campaign will be KH!

[Ludens]

Thanks for the explanation, Keravnos. However, I thought that the final MIC level for the KH represented the full restoration of the Spartan agoge. You would expect people who had been trained from childhood to be a little more effective than those who were trained from adulthood. Don't get me wrong, I do like it that there is only a subtle difference between Spartiates and normal elite hoplites, but as it is, you have to invest and awful lot for a unit that actually has worse stats (the +1 morale does not make up for the -1 armour).

[Mitth'raw'nuruodo]

Yea, that is kinda what I was getting at Ludens. A large investment of time and money for an inferior product.

Thank you for that explanation though Keravnos.