Irish Infantry

[wilddog]

The King Of Peasants - thanks, we are sorting out the Bonnachata textures (the one shown was a first attempt as I was sorting out some of the basics of the model and skin). The final ones will of course be similar but have some variation. I'll hopefully post some final versions next weekend.

[riadach]

riadach@ I've set up a model for the Galloglaidh with double handed swords - just haven't got to the texturing. I've also corrected the hand positoning on the 2 handed axe version (thanks Halie for pointing that out)

Excellent, I hope this doesn't look like I'm demanding, I just thought it would add more variety to the Irish roster.

I have a basic question do you think the Irish units should have long spear or just short spear? (mainly as a Bonnachta unit).

I'm intending to do a Bonnachta unit with 2 handed axe and another as a bow version also.

The buannachta, or the amhas, which was basically the native Irish mercenary class, wouldn't have been too badly equipped. I imagine it was reasonable for them to have long spears. The Irish word craísech was used for both a horseman's lance, and a man's spear. It was this buannachta class that later made up Ó Néill's pikemen. Perhaps I should read up on Harbison, but I think you can indeed make them long.

It might not be unreasonable either to equip a few with shortswords or with simple armour, I'm unsure about bows though. Have you any plans to equip the ceithearnach or the gallóglaigh with bows? As far as I know (from duhrecht's engraving above) the gallóglaigh did use them. The ceithearnach definitely did, as well as javelins and in some cases shortswords, and were later to use muskets as well, though this is outside the realm of the mod.




It may be easier to view gallóglaigh buannachta and ceithearnaigh as classes of warriors, as opposed to individual units with exclusive weapons.

[wilddog]

Excellent, I hope this doesn't look like I'm demanding, I just thought it would add more variety to the Irish roster.

No problems with any suggestions on units and relatively its just a small change.

It may be easier to view gallóglaigh buannachta and ceithearnaigh as classes of warriors, as opposed to individual units with exclusive weapons.

To a certain extent I am. The Ceitherne based units are equipped with

1) Javelin, 2) 1h axe, 3) bow and 4) Javelin and 1 h axe -they're the units currently showing in the first post

The Galloglaigh are now equipped with 2H Axe or 2H Sword. Need to decide on a bow version.

The Bonnachta I wanted as an intermediate class of heavier infnatry. So I was planning on equiping with a spear (long or short I was debating).
Probably a 2 H Axe version also
Wasn't sure about a javelin or Bow version (although I guess if I go for a Galloglaigh bow unit then that solves the bow problem - its partly a balancing issue for unit types.).

[riadach]

To a certain extent I am. The Ceitherne based units are equipped with

1) Javelin, 2) 1h axe, 3) bow and 4) Javelin and 1 h axe -they're the units currently showing in the first post

Could I suggest a short spear as well, or a short sword? I think Irish units were very versatile in relation to the weapons they used.

The Galloglaigh are now equipped with 2H Axe or 2H Sword. Need to decide on a bow version.

What kind of weapons can bowmen have for meleé?

The Bonnachta I wanted as an intermediate class of heavier infnatry. So I was planning on equiping with a spear (long or short I was debating).
Probably a 2 H Axe version also

Indeed, that would make perfect sense. I doubt their armour would have been as heavy, but they would have been much more manouvrable and faster speed. I would consider a shortsword here too, either that or a long spear.

Wasn't sure about a javelin or Bow version (although I guess if I go for a Galloglaigh bow unit then that solves the bow problem - its partly a balancing issue for unit types.).

Oh i get ya. Well a bow unit is unnecessary then. The Irish also employed foreign bowmen as sáirseannaigh (from the french serjeant). These could act as an intermediate bowman unit.

[wilddog]

riadach - Sorry for not getting back sooner I was sort of tied up with work and also trying to get to grips on a problem on UV mapping (Probably not something most people would notice but nevertheless something that was bugging me. Makankane on the other hand thought a dark patch behind the ears was more important ).

I've still not decided 100% on unit types on the Irish unit Roster and some of the other Gaelic based ones. The issue is tied to quantity of unit types versus upgrades to unit types. Its also partially tied to where you can build that unit. I did a while back a revamped EDU but I intend to rearrange that now that some of the models are clearer.

All the info has been of great use from you and from other people via PM's so I'm trying to incorporate as much as possible.

I still need to sort out the cavalry units also but some will be tied to mounted equivalents to infantry units.

[riadach]

Well the lucht teaghlaigh, were the noble horse soldiers par excellence of the Irish nobility in the 12th-13th century. They weren't heavy cavalry, but they were reasonably well-armoured with mail, held the spear overarm, had short but strong horses, were quick moving, saddless (they had a cushion instead), spurs, no stirrups. Extremely fast and manoevrable they could negotiate all geographical obstacles with ease. They could engage heavy cavalry, though their cavalry charge against ground troops was weak. De perelhos gives a good account.

They did of course, also dismount, and provided a nice heavy armoured infantry troop in battle.

[wilddog]

Revised Galloglaigh added to first post. Older work in progress removed. Just the 2 handed axe version added at the moment.

[riadach]

Very nice, I like the different kerne groups.

However, where did you get the ceitherne fianaidi from?

[wilddog]

Very nice, I like the different kerne groups.

However, where did you get the ceitherne fianaidi from?

The name came from a post a long while back (pre Kingdoms by Anthony) which referred to Irish units. It mentioned the wealthier Fianadi in the context of the Ceitherne (is it wrong or did I misunderstand?).

Note I also posted the 2 handed Sword Galloglaigh in the first post of the thread.

[Halie Satanus]

I think they'd be two seperate unit types..

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59581

Also you can cross reference here,

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=159748

(and probably ask Antagonist for verification/input)


(i know what your thinking, how does he do that! )

[firekiller]

very good skins +rep

[makanyane]

thanks Halie and firekiller, now if anyone knows more about what irish 13c horses are meant to look like, now is the time to speak before I get to them...

English WIP heavy jobs : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160803

[riadach]

I think they'd be two seperate unit types..



Also you can cross reference here,

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=159748

(and probably ask Antagonist for verification/input)


(i know what your thinking, how does he do that! )

I'm not too sure about that. The names are well off, and it lies a fair bit outside the time period.

[wilddog]

I cam across the name Ceitherne Congbhala would that make sense? It said it meant retained bands.

[riadach]

Yes, it is. There was also a ceitherne tighe in later centuries which were a retained band that acted as the lords 'police' force. Maintaining order, extracting fines etc.

I think the general name ceitherne might come from ceitherne congbhála. As originally a ceitherne was a general warband and not necessarily a mercenary group.

[wilddog]

riadach _ Thanks, I'll go with that name for the best equipped of the Ceitherne units (ie the one I had down as Fianadi before).

For the heavier infantry I'm planning on just referring to them as types of Bonnachta although I know that technically wasn't a specific "type" of soldier.

We're starting on the cavalry now (been a bit ill over the last few days). I can't remember if there is any spear overarm melee animation in MTW2. I don't think there is.

Would horseboys or their equivalent have shields?

[riadach]

riadach _ Thanks, I'll go with that name for the best equipped of the Ceitherne units (ie the one I had down as Fianadi before).

For the heavier infantry I'm planning on just referring to them as types of Bonnachta although I know that technically wasn't a specific "type" of soldier.

We're starting on the cavalry now (been a bit ill over the last few days). I can't remember if there is any spear overarm melee animation in MTW2. I don't think there is.

Would horseboys or their equivalent have shields?

I'm unsure, but considering they weren't really a melee cavalry unit, and were merely the squires of the knights, I'd severely doubt it.

[riadach]

Just thinking, there are a lot of references to gilla con, literally dog-boys, in Caithréim Thoirdhealbhaigh around the beginning of the fourteenth century. Now, there is no reference to dogs been used in battle, but it is a possibility.

[wilddog]

I'm unsure, but considering they weren't really a melee cavalry unit, and were merely the squires of the knights, I'd severely doubt it.

I couldn't find anything either so I removed them. We should be starting a separate thread on the Irish horse units later today. Maks sorting out the ponies at the moment.I 'll probably struggle on naming anything different to vanilla though.

[DragonsWarrior]

hope to see what the welsh units are like