Free Kurdistan ?

[Aziel]

Do you support independent state for the Kurds in Kurdistan region ?

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

yeah why the hell not, give the turks another excuse to 'deport' ethnic minorities

[Pontifex Maximus]

No, the last thing we need in the Middle East is a segregated country for Shia or sunni Muslims to declare war on. We gave the Jews their own country and look where that got us. No Kurdistan.

[nce_wht_guy]

No, the last thing we need in the Middle East is a segregated country for Shia or sunni Muslims to declare war on. We gave the Jews their own country and look where that got us. No Kurdistan.

Why would they "declare war on" Kurdistan?

[Crimson Scythe]

Why would they "declare war on" Kurdistan?

I can think of two reasons, one secular (i.e., purely political) the other religious. In the secular case, the Kurds are spread out enough throughout Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq, and even to a lesser extent Azerbaijan, that any Kurdish state would technically represent a threat to the internal security of those countries, not to mention territorial integrity, particularly in the case of the first four.

In the religious case (much less likely, but possible nontheless), many Kurds belong to subsects of the Sunni and Shiite branches of Islam, and in some cases these are even considered heretical, and have been suppressed for centuries. Any Kurdish state would also become a target of sectarian violence, as many Sunnis and Shiites would naturally be intermingled with them. If you add in ethnic differences, you have chaos. Think pre-Surge Iraq, but on a much larger scale.

[Yuiis]

I can think of two reasons, one secular (i.e., purely political) the other religious. In the secular case, the Kurds are spread out enough throughout Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq, and even to a lesser extent Azerbaijan, that any Kurdish state would technically represent a threat to the internal security of those countries, not to mention territorial integrity, particularly in the case of the first four.

In the religious case (much less likely, but possible nontheless), many Kurds belong to subsects of the Sunni and Shiite branches of Islam, and in some cases these are even considered heretical, and have been suppressed for centuries. Any Kurdish state would also become a target of sectarian violence, as many Sunnis and Shiites would naturally be intermingled with them. If you add in ethnic differences, you have chaos. Think pre-Surge Iraq, but on a much larger scale.

Prophecies...

Why would a free Kurdish state be a threat to the internall security of those countries? In any case, a free Kurdistan would actually stop terrorist actions against them.

The religious argument is also a bit lame, how and why is the Iraqui situation comparable to a hypothetic free Kurdistan?

I do agree that within the Kurdish state severe differences could rise within the Kurd population and the state could, in the first years, be somewhat unstable. In the end though, all of these are mere hypothesis.

[Tiwaz]

Free Kurdistan stop terrorism? Hell no.

If they gave land, they would sacrifice their territorial integrity, cause internal problems with dissatisfaction of populace and so forth.

If they didn't, kurds would still wage war, now from independent safe haven of Kurdistan, to get turkish/syrian/iranian land to annex to Kurdistan.

Not to mention, even if land was ceded by Turkey/Iran/Syria... It is unlikely they would ever come into mutually acceptable border. Kurdistan would think it is receiving too little, others would be thinking they are receiving all too much.

Kurdistan would be trouble.

[Crimson Scythe]

Prophecies...

Speculation, actually. nce_wht_guy asked for possible scenarios, not probable ones.

Why would a free Kurdish state be a threat to the internall security of those countries? In any case, a free Kurdistan would actually stop terrorist actions against them.

Statistically, Kurdish autonomy in northern Iraq has resulted in an increase in Kurdish terrorism in both Turkey and Iran since 2003.

And unless ALL Kurds were made part of this new state, some will naturally want to join it AND take their lands with them. If they simply emigrated, you would have no problems, but Kurds tend to be very attached to their lands (as you might have noticed). This mentality of needing to have your cake and eat it too will naturally result in separatist mentalities among Kurds in other countries, which will ultimately lead to violence (as it usually does), hence a threat to internal security.

The religious argument is also a bit lame, how and why is the Iraqui situation comparable to a hypothetic free Kurdistan?

Kurdish religious sects have been suppressed, sometimes violently, for centuries. Take the Yazidi Shiite sect, for instance. It's disliked by both Sunnis and Shiites for being heretical (by the Sunnis more so). You think Sunni Arabs and Turkmen will want to be led by 'heretical' Kurds?

I do agree that within the Kurdish state severe differences could rise within the Kurd population and the state could, in the first years, be somewhat unstable. In the end though, all of these are mere hypothesis.

Like I said, these problems have been around for centuries, as has the animosity. Such things don't simply disappear overnight. An independent Kurdish state will simply bring them to the forefront and make that state a focal point for more violence, inter-ethnic and sectarian.

[Serious Spamurai]

Kurdistan is populated by Kurds, why not let them secede from the countries they are currently part of? Although Iran and Syria would probably invade it to show strength.

[Tiwaz]

Kurdistan is populated by Kurds, why not let them secede from the countries they are currently part of? Although Iran and Syria would probably invade it to show strength.

"Let them secede"...

And you thought to ask from countris which would be contributing to territories of would be Kurdistan if they want to give up their territory?

They will not give single square of land unless forced through war.
Attempt would rather give excuse for ethnic cleansing.

[Serious Spamurai]

"Let them secede"...

And you thought to ask from countris which would be contributing to territories of would be Kurdistan if they want to give up their territory?

Land that Kurds have lived on for centuries. Syria and Iran care not for the Kurds, it would also give more seats to the actual Iraqis in the Iraqi parliament. Kurds should not be given it, but if they fight, then they deserve every inch.

[Tiwaz]

Land that Kurds have lived on for centuries. Syria and Iran care not for the Kurds, it would also give more seats to the actual Iraqis in the Iraqi parliament. Kurds should not be given it, but if they fight, then they deserve every inch.

They deserve it if they can TAKE it. They have been fighting, but they have not gained anything. And are unlikely to ever gain single inch.

Turkey, Syria and Iran are never going to give any land.
Iraq might do it because it is actually led by some puppets without actual power. But even then newly born Kurdistan is besieged and landlocked by hostile states who do not want to have Kurdistan try to annex their territories.

In short, only way for kurds to form kurdistan is to beat armies of Turkey (attack upon which is attack on NATO), Syria and Iran. Each of those three could wipe out kurds totally if it really wanted.

I predict no kurdistan in future.

[jankren]

The Kurds should be allowed to rule in the land where they have been living on for generations. But only if they can fight for it.

[Ältester der Motten]

The Kurds should be allowed to rule in the land where they have been living on for generations. But only if they can fight for it.

The chatti tribe lived on the territory that is known as hesse (less exactly, but yeah) since the very first time they are mentioned by historians, unlike most other germanic tribes, so I guess we deserve our VERY OWN state aswell.
WELL NOW, I DON'T SEE IT! THIS CRIES FOR A RIOT!

Never undrestimate the power of 'being with your own kind'.

Yeah, ask armenians, tibetans, gipsys or jews.

There's a bit more to it.

Then we could lump turkey in with china and switzerland as the most agressive nations in the world.

Pardon? :hmmm:






BTW: Which would actually be good arguments for an own kurdish state? Couldn't they act out their culture well enough in an unkurdish governed state?
I mean, Sami do fine in Norway (any Norwegian or Sami please correct me if I am wrong, which I doubt), so do slavonic minorities in germany, and in the whole USA there has never been one riot because the irish, german, english, french, spanish or whatever population would wish for their own state, so I guess.

[jankren]

The chatti tribe lived on the territory that is known as hesse (less exactly, but yeah) since the very first time they are mentioned by historians, unlike most other germanic tribes, so I guess we deserve our VERY OWN state aswell.
WELL NOW, I DON'T SEE IT! THIS CRIES FOR A RIOT!

If your people really want a state of their own and willing to fight for it then yes they do deserve a country.

[Isbolg]

^^^ In our democracy, Canada, there have been a couple votes on a minority, Quebec, becoming independent. They would have taken rather a lot of land with them if they'd left, too.

And yeah, I think Turkey should treat the Kurds with the respect we give to the Quebecois or the British finally gave to Ireland when they let it leave. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen, of course.

Edit:

in the whole USA there has never been one riot because the irish, german, english, french, spanish or whatever population would wish for their own state, so I guess.

You're using the USA as an example? Sure, noone's ever, like, started a civil war trying to secede from the USA. And there have certainly never been any ethnically based riots in the US, in say, Detroit, or Watts. Although granted the Blacks have never imagined they could get their own state, so the riots haven't been about that.

[Yuiis]

^^^ In our democracy, Canada, there have been a couple votes on a minority, Quebec, becoming independent. They would have taken rather a lot of land with them if they'd left, too.

And yeah, I think Turkey should treat the Kurds with the respect we give to the Quebecois or the British finally gave to Ireland when they let it leave. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen, of course.

This is what I'm talking about when I use the word democracy. Understanding that a different people, a different culture live in a certain territorry in the state you live in, and understanding that they are the only real owners of their future as a nation. If they want to secede they should be let to and if they want to keep forming part of your state well...that's just great isn't it?

[Tiwaz]

This is what I'm talking about when I use the word democracy. Understanding that a different people, a different culture live in a certain territorry in the state you live in, and understanding that they are the only real owners of their future as a nation. If they want to secede they should be let to and if they want to keep forming part of your state well...that's just great isn't it?

And, pray tell, what gives people this right?

Let's say we immigrate people from country X to your neighbourhood. They suddenly start to call for independence and vote in favour of seceding. You happily accept this?

It is idiotic at best, suicidal at worst.

Democracy does not mean few guys here or there getting their will. In country you have to think of whole country, not just little minority with secessionist dreams.

Want to bet that Canada would be doing anything in it's power to shoot down Quebec attempts of independence?

Canada, despite it's liberal position, would do everything in it's power to make existence of independent Quebec as difficult as possible.

[Norge]

I mean, Sami do fine in Norway (any Norwegian or Sami please correct me if I am wrong, which I doubt), so do slavonic minorities in germany, and in the whole USA there has never been one riot because the irish, german, english, french, spanish or whatever population would wish for their own state, so I guess.

It's not like the Sami's have been living in harmony with the Norse population. The Sami, Finns, and Kvens were viewed as sub-human by Norwegians a hundred years ago. There was an aggressive Norwegianization policy troughout the interwar years, even forced sterilization in some cases. As a result, few Sami have actually retained their original culture, and most consider themselves Norwegian by now.

[Yuiis]

It's not like the Sami's have been living in harmony with the Norse population. The Sami, Finns, and Kvens were viewed as sub-human by Norwegians a hundred years ago. There was an aggressive Norwegianization policy troughout the interwar years, even forced sterilization in some cases. As a result, few Sami have actually retained their original culture, and most consider themselves Norwegian by now.

It happens with all the nations that consider themselves superior to others. They try to force their own culture on to the others. But in the end, it is just a sign of fear, a mean of protection, a sign of moral and ethical weakness of which most of them still suffer today.