Does Reverend Wright have a point about African Americans being held back?

[Count of Montesano]

I know Obama's speech on race and his defense of Reverend Jeremiah Wright have been big news recently. I've been having discussions with several of my conservative and liberal friends lately about Obama, Wright, and the relationship between European and African Americans recently.

My conservative friend's take: Slavery ended 150 years ago. Desegregation ended nearly 50 years ago. Other immigrant groups - including ones from Africa - have since come to America and thrived through hard work and family values. African Americans who are struggling need to take responsibility for the fact so many of their community are poor, addicted to drugs/alcohol, or in prison.

My liberal friend's take: Latent racism is still very real. One friend pointed to a study that shows corporate employers are less likely to hire applicants with traditional African names than ones who have "American" names. He forwarded me the article and it's an interesting read:
http://www.slate.com/id/2183053/

African Americans are still suffering from centuries of slavery and poor education and still need significant help. Successful people like Oprah or Bill Cosby or sports stars are the exception that proves the rule, and there still isn't a black version of Bill Gates, President Bush, or Warren Buffett.

So I'm interested to find out what other people think. I'm probably in the middle on this one. Yes, I believe in personal responsibility and the need for more poor people in America - of every color - to get with the program and start improving their lives. But I also realize you can't just wipe out hundreds of years of slavery with feel good slogans or self empowerment books. The modern American middle class came about during the 40s-70s, during a time when African Americans were still fighting for racial and economic equality. I still believe many are playing catch-up, and the US could certainly be a more equitable society in many ways.

Anyhow,what's your take?

[Maverick]

How many comparisons can you make between a black man today and a slave hundreds of years ago?

How many comparisons can you make between an American woman today and a non-person only 4 generations ago?

How many comparisons can you make between a jewish man today and a hunted animal only 3 generations ago?

Personally I think the answer to all 3 questions is somewhere between almost nothing and absolutely nothing.

Horrible atrocities were committed, past tense. Today there is nothing more dispicable to the liberal general public than racial or religious intolerance. Everyone today is afforded the same opportunities, maybe the odd employer won't hire a Kintango or Goldstein but the "white power structure" is almost nonexistant today. Equality is a meaningless word, America is a cultural mixing pot and everyone is unique, what's important is that despite our differences we have equal opportunities and the fact that a black man or a woman will be the next democratic party nominee for president is proof that we are much closer to that goal than certain people would have us believe...

Many words can describe Reverend Wright: apologist, social parasite etc. No objective critic can agree with the man in good conscience. I don't have a lot of respect for the clergy in general but even less for Reverend Wright who hoots and hollers as if volume is a substitute for a valid argument. As a "mainline" Christian preacher he has made his fortune by preaching whatever it is that parishioners want to hear and needless to say people want to hear that society owes them something and is responsible for them which is the furthest thing from the truth in America.

I think Reverend Wright is smart enough to know that he is irrelevant and that the "us vs. them" mentality is outdated. There is no longer a system in place to forcibly segregate black from white, there is just one all-inclusive system you are free to join or not and you can succeed on its terms: education and hard-work or you can choose not to and fail on your terms: society owes you something. It's a simple choice but people won't need to be told what they should have by Reverend Wright if they already have it and so he will probably continue his crusade to remain relevant at the expense of the best interests of practically every other member of his race in America.

My take is that it's all about personal responsibility and self-respect.

[MyNameIsGreat]

There is nothing stopping anyone from becoming middle-class or even wealthy in this country. I see a black presidential candidate, a black-dominated entertainment industry, black scholarships, black CEOs, black anything.

Obviously racism still exists in America as it does everywhere, but there's nothing holding anyone back. When you compare the "racial inequality" of today to that of the 50s and 1700s, you get a better perspective on things.

[mongrel]

There is nothing stopping anyone from becoming middle-class or even wealthy in this country. I see a black presidential candidate, a black-dominated entertainment industry, black scholarships, black CEOs, black anything.

Obviously racism still exists in America as it does everywhere, but there's nothing holding anyone back. When you compare the "racial inequality" of today to that of the 50s and 1700s, you get a better perspective on things.

I tend to agree.

In the UK we have rigorously enforced equality laws but very little social mobility between the social classes.

That is not to say that where racism is found it ought to be stamped on.

There is absolutely no prospect of their being a black or Asian prime minister or armed forces chief in the near future and there are no potential Margaret Thatcher amongst the ranks of Westminster MPs.

[ivan_the_terrible]

I don't live in the US so I can't really say certainly. But from what I gather, he's a bit of a nut.

Even if he does have valid points (and I'm not necessarily saying he does), he lost all credibility when he claimed that the government invented AIDS to kill black people.

[Burnum]

is Reverend Wright's comment that all that controversial, I mean I've heard white Evangelicals say worse and become extremely popular.

[ivan_the_terrible]

is Reverend Wright's comment that all that controversial,

Its not particularly unique, no. As I understand it, its controversial because of his close links to Obama.

[Icefrisco]

It depends where. In the parts of the south blacks are still treated badly. Even in the north there are a few racists. However, thats it. The worst treatment a black will get in the south is getting a ticket for "speeding"(being black). In the north the worst treatment blacks will get is getting called an "oreo" if they are a conservative. However, stuff like this happens with other groups too. I think blacks are well off in many areas. Reverend Wright was just trying to appeal to his congregation which is very poor. Most likely the poor blacks in his congregation view "whitey" as the source of all their problems.

[Chaigidel]

uh there is less racism in the south than there is in the north-- considering the vast majority of the ethnic black population resides in the south, and in some places they are the clear majority of the population ( mississppi parts of TN)

[Last Roman]

uh there is less racism in the south than there is in the north-- considering the vast majority of the ethnic black population resides in the south, and in some places they are the clear majority of the population ( mississppi parts of TN)

:hmmm: er, no. I don't live in the south (thank jebus) but I only had to visit to know what you said isn't true

anyhoo, the problem with race relations today is that whites have moved on, while some blacks still feel the scars of 200+ years of slavery and prejudice. It is a shame that they can't move on, but I think Obama is right in that there has to be some sort of dialog, so that we can ALL finally patch this up.

[Count of Montesano]

@ Last Roman - I think you hit the nail on the head. I like many white Americans feel a little rankled if someone tries to hang all the ills of slavery around my neck. Yes, some of my ancestors on my dad's side owned slaves. Guess what? My own grandfather decided to side with the Union (my family's from a border state) and fight AGAINST slavery. On my mom's side, my great-great grandfather and grandmother were in Germany and had nothing to do with slavery. I understand that future generations are going to be affected by the past, but at some point blacks still blaming all whites for slavery is about as fair and useful as all Italian Americans hating all German Americans for the fall of Rome.

That being said, I personally think that America is not as socially mobile or as much of a meritocracy as Americans like to think it is. I'm not saying the entire system is rigged but consider this - from 1900 to the 1940s many Americans of all races would be considered working class or working poor. The post WWII War boom greatly benefited White America as returning soldiers received the GI Bill to go to college and VA loans to buy houses and start building family wealth through real estate. Black Americans, even if they had served in the military with distinction, faced a lot more roadblocks in getting educated and joining the middle class. And by educated I mean at all levels. It wasn't until the late 1960s that a black middle and upper middle class began to emerge. So, IMHO the black community is still playing catch-up at the worst possible time. Yes, the playing field has been leveled in America. But globalization is making it harder and harder for the poor to join the ranks of the middle class - you're either well educated and highly competitive or you're just another working class drone who can easily be replaced by a much cheaper Mexican, Indian, or Chinese worker.

[DimondLight]

uh there is less racism in the south than there is in the north-- considering the vast majority of the ethnic black population resides in the south, and in some places they are the clear majority of the population ( mississppi parts of TN)

You don't need to be a minority to have people be racist towards you.

[Count of Montesano]

If you couldn't get a job because of the color of your skin what would you do for money? Answer me that.

Well, I've already pointed out that I believe historical racism still has a possible effect on the present. However, I don't believe that there is any major corporation that would not hire a qualified African American candidate based solely on race. Please show me statistics that African Americans are still regularly denied jobs because of their skin color. The truth of the matter is college educated African Americans from middle class backgrounds do as well as their white counterparts, sometimes better. There are also plenty of diversity programs and special mentoring programs to help minorities in many big companies - at least that's true of some of the major corporations where I've worked.

Are there still an unacceptably large number of African Americans who are unemployed, on welfare, or in prison? Yes, but I think that has far less to do with skin color alone. There are many other factors going on here, from globalization to illegal immigration to a perverse subculture that does not value education and sees single parent families as the norm.

[Hansa]

Wasn't there a fight between a group of white people vs a group of black people in the south of the US recently were the white guys were charged with something like ''causing a disturbance'' while the black youths were charged with ''attempted murder''. I believe it got some headlines. I believe the accident happened at Jena high school/college or similar.

Saw a piece on 60 minutes a while back where basically the entire black community in a mid west small-town were jailed for being a major drug ring in a tiny town, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Either the county or state legislator later freed the blacks though and I believe the Sherrifs deputy in charge of the investigation was fired (although he should clearly have been charged for creating evidence etc). There is definitely racism in the US and my impression (as a foreigner) is that it is quite bad in some underdeveloped regions) generally though, things seem to move in the right direction and have been for quite a while. Also, the US being a massive country of 300 million people, one is bound to come up with some pretty hairy examples. Generally, I do not think there is a system of institutionalized racism in the USA any longer, though there seems to be some exceptions in very limited areas.

[MyNameIsGreat]

Wasn't there a fight between a group of white people vs a group of black people in the south of the US recently were the white guys were charged with something like ''causing a disturbance'' while the black youths were charged with ''attempted murder''. I believe it got some headlines. I believe the accident happened at Jena high school/college or similar.

Some white kids hung nooses from a tree, and later some black kids nearly beat a white kid to death. Nobody was really innocent in that mess if I remember correctly.

[Chaigidel]

I would just like to say that not one person here has done as much for america or his or her community as reverend wright. his public service has earned him respect from presidents since LBJ(whom he treated) --- have you served your country in war ? reverend wright has-- have you helped get the homeless sheltered? rev wright has-- have you worked for 30 years trying to help the people around you? rev wright has

rev wright said goddamn america one time after 30 years of preaching--- this man is a great man, and you only insult yourself if you speak against him.

reverend wright is more of a patriot, more of an american-- than anyone who speaks against him.

[MyNameIsGreat]

rev wright said goddamn america one time after 30 years of preaching--- this man is a great man, and you only insult yourself if you speak against him.

reverend wright is more of a patriot, more of an american-- than anyone who speaks against him.

So if a NASCAR-watching, USMC veteran, gun-owning, flag-loving American says, for instance, "I hate Jews", should we respect his opinions? Just because he's "More American" than us?

He's a moron. I don't care if he invented the cure for cancer and raised people from the dead. He accused the government of using AIDs to wipe out the black race. And said we deserved 9/11. So if being a racist nutjob is American, than I'm glad I'm "less American" than he is.

And a lot of people here HAVE served in the military, FYI.

[Sphere]

Obama did a good job in his speech of explaining Wrights perspective. Wright lived through the fire-bombings, attack dogs and firehoses of the civil rights movement. In this way his views are connected to the past, not the present.

Also, Wrights comments that the 2001 attacks were linked to our foriegn policy aren't that radical. Hell, the CIA directly financed Bin Laden for many years.


This episode however shows the strange dilema in America politics;to be electable you have to be religous, but many religous views and sects are politically incorrect.

[Chaigidel]

and the thing about aids isnt so far fetched either

aids happened to begin in an area where usa and british government labs were giving out polio vaccine-- this is a much debated topic but it is by no means insane to say that we accidentally created the human HIV virus

I dont think it was intentional but I also do not think the disease is natural ( in humans)

rev wright as an american citizen who served in arms to that country can say whatever the sam he pleases about a place he risked his life for.

[Gwendylyn]

Ironically, I think both your liberal and your conservative friend are correct. There is a definite problem in people espousing being uneducated, wasteful with money, doing drugs, and being violence as part of new urban "black culture".

Horrible atrocities were committed, past tense. Today there is nothing more dispicable to the liberal general public than racial or religious intolerance. Everyone today is afforded the same opportunities, maybe the odd employer won't hire a Kintango or Goldstein but the "white power structure" is almost nonexistant today.

There is nothing stopping anyone from becoming middle-class or even wealthy in this country. I see a black presidential candidate, a black-dominated entertainment industry, black scholarships, black CEOs, black anything.

Obviously racism still exists in America as it does everywhere, but there's nothing holding anyone back. When you compare the "racial inequality" of today to that of the 50s and 1700s, you get a better perspective on things.

It depends where. In the parts of the south blacks are still treated badly. Even in the north there are a few racists. However, thats it. The worst treatment a black will get in the south is getting a ticket for "speeding"(being black). In the north the worst treatment blacks will get is getting called an "oreo" if they are a conservative. However, stuff like this happens with other groups too. I think blacks are well off in many areas. Reverend Wright was just trying to appeal to his congregation which is very poor. Most likely the poor blacks in his congregation view "whitey" as the source of all their problems.

Some of you are very uninformed. It's great to say that racism doesn't hold anyone back, that 150 years ago doesn't affect us anymore. But in the US it is not true. It's a fantasy, albeit a very optimistic one, that says everything is fine and dandy and to pay no attention to the statistics behind the curtain.

The OP already mentioned the unequal opportunity at the interview stage for black vs. white applicants. That is a very real issue. Blacks are more likely to be given higher penalties for the same crimes whites commit. That is a very real issue. Only 60 years ago, blacks weren't allowed to use the same bathrooms as whites, and you expect that their children have the same exact opportunity as whites do today? Do you really think that your family's social and economic status has nothing to do with your own success and what opportunities you have?