RS 3.0 -- Everyone Please Read!

[cherryfunk]

This is a continuation of the 'Moving Forward' thread. I've been talking with dvk and tone about what we do after RS2.0, and our thoughts run along these lines:

-- While RS2.0 must be our focus, we should prepare for what we do after it is released. There's still much work to be done, but the finish line is within sight and within a few months, we'll be testing and polishing RS2.0.

-- The fan community is moving, and will continue to move, towards the M2TW engine. Developing a new version of RS for the RTW engine might not be the best idea given this migration.

-- Conversion of M2TW to the Roman era will be an enormous undertaking, so rather than doing it ourselves, we should consider pairing up with one of the teams currently working on such a conversion.

-- Of the Roman-era M2TW mods currently in development, Paeninsula Italica is the best fit for such a joint effort, because A) it seems to have the most effective team, and B) its focus is radically different from Roma Surrectum, since it is being designed for an earlier period with a focus on Italy rather than all of Europe.

-- If the PI:TW team was willing to work with us, the two mods would compliment each other nicely -- theirs would be a early-era, Italian-focused campaign, ours would be a later-era European campaign. Different times, different scales, but much of the work would be identical (i.e. cultures, buildings, voices, UI, units, etc.)

-- Currently, PI:TW is at hard at work developing units. Roma Surrectum has many Roman era units that they might be able to use as a basis for their own. If we offer to help them now, we could save them months of work.

-- Thus, if we approach them now about pairing up, sharing the work that both mods will need to get up and running in the M2TW engine, and offer them our units as a gesture of good will, we may be able to get a head start on converting RS to the new engine. Both mods would gain immeasurably as a result, and the workload for both teams would be reduced.

-- So, what does everyone think of this idea? Are there any objections or other suggestions? And is there anyone on the RS team with connections to the Paeninsula Italica team who could approach them about such a combined effort?

-- One other note: dvk has suggested that, if we start to move over to the new engine, we might want to change the start date of Roma Surrectum to avoid recreating the exact same mod. Personally, I think a mod focused on the early Empire (specifically, starting with the wars between Octavian and Antony, and moving forward from there) might be the most interesting period. Any thoughts on this?

[pseudocaesar]

Id like to see a 14 AD mod, upon the ascension of Tiberius, and the now defensive Roman Empire. You could have so much free slots, you could have a tribe or new faction on every two or three provinces surrounding the empire. Its never been done before but i reckon it would work.

[zznɟ ǝɥʇ]

For what its worth:

On a personal level I have issues with Sig. He's a fine modder but he is a huge Romophile and Hellenophile... he didn't let RoP use his animations because "only Greeks get them" (I've lost the quote, I'm sure rez has it somewhere.) There's a few threads at the .org where Sig just wouldn't quit bagging on EB for having powerful barbarians and how they hated Rome and so on. His comments in the history forum on TWC can be equally strange.

I mention these points because I am concerned that Sig would raise a fuss over the fine Celt and assorted barbarian units that RS2 features. Hopefully he wouldn't bring these biases into modding, but I'm just concerned.

cherry, that timeframe sounds fascinating.

[cherryfunk]

Id like to see a 14 AD mod, upon the ascension of Tiberius, and the now defensive Roman Empire. You could have so much free slots, you could have a tribe or new faction on every two or three provinces surrounding the empire. Its never been done before but i reckon it would work.

Hmmm, that's a pretty cool idea. I think this could be done as a Provincial Campaign, an offshoot of a 42BC mod -- the factions would be almost the same, except the Empire would be unified rather than split into three factions. What do you think?

On a personal level I have issues with Sig. He's a fine modder but he is a huge Romophile and Hellenophile...

Well, so is dvk, and we somehow manage to work with him

Do you think there would be long-term problems working with him? The only other alternative is the Res Gestae team, and they look to be a bit of a mess in terms of organization... I don't think EB2 would want anything to do with us.

cherry, that timeframe sounds fascinating.

It would be -- Rome's Empire split into Antony's Eastern faction, Octavian's Italian/Gallic faction, and Lepidus's African and Spanish faction, plus a rogue faction in Sicily under Sextus Pompeius. The factions begin in an uneasy alliance, yet ultimately only one can rule the Empire -- and meanwhile, from the Spaniards to the Numidians to the Germans to the Parthians, the borders of the Empire teem with 'barbarians' eager to bring it down...

[Gotthard]

Well, I'm not working on any of this because of the fans. I just happen to like it. We barely have an understanding of the RTW engine, haven't used up it's potential at all, and in 4 years of modding even some basic files haven't been touched by any mod team, examples like chariots in the descr_mount directory a prime one.

MTW2 might offer better graphics (I assume higher poly counts and texture sizes), and a 'fortress/city' split to regions (would that even be appropriate in the Roman era?)... maybe some other small things with trade... but even the RTW developers didn't use the engine to nearly it's full extent, so why not expand on something we already have a better understanding of?

Without a very significant improvement (which I have yet to see) in game play, I see little reason to move on.

[cherryfunk]

Well Gotthard, my thoughts are pretty much the opposite of yours -- the new engine to me is a huge leap forward, most particularly due to the graphics (which are much more lifelike), the improved diplomacy ('wars of extermination' being something I've always hated in the RTW engine) and the addition of merchants (I simply adore exploring the world in search of lucrative trade routes... adds a whole new facet to the game).

And, frankly, I do care how many fans play the mod. Guess I'm just a publicity whore Otherwise I'd probably still be modding Age of Wonders...

[Gotthard]

Well, I work as a coder for Jagged Alliance 2, so I DO still mod those old games (it's from 1997 iirc).

I haven't played the game in-depth, but I'll sift through the modding forums and see what the new limits on modding are. If the wonder count is the same, the resource count the same, etc. I'm not saying MTW2 isn't better, if it's RTW+better graphics it's better, but is it worth the sacrifice of all our knowledge on how the files work? Being the head of our own team?

We've barely started improving RTW's graphics... Tone and Pacco have done a fantastic job, their work destroys all, but so many things haven't been touched. Shrubs/grass/fire/smoke/dust, wall destruction animations... NEW animations even!

I think there should be something that says 'THIS will make RS MUCH better'... We'd be doing the same thing the original creators did, coming part way to making something perfect, and then moving on, and starting over. Certainly, MTW2 is better in some respects, but I think they could have released RS today (especially with what THEY know about the models and code) and it would have been just a big a hit.

[Nellup]

I'm sure that cherry already knows my views on M2TW after our arguement in another thread, but I'll say it again here.

I find M2 to be a far less immersive game than RTW and to a large extent prefer the simple graphics in Rome to the jazzed up graphics of M2.
I feel you ought to exploit the RTW engine to the maximum, as dvk's tests show, it isn't that different to the M2 engine and many people prefer it.
There is no reason why the mod fanbase ought to drift towards M2, especially once Empires comes out. Although EB's certainly will with the release of EB2, but good luck to them with that. I would certainly continue to play RS on RTW even if a version was released for M2.
If, as Fuzz said, moving to be with a romanophile mod would diminish RS's work on the 'barbarian' factions, then why bother?
If you can make RS2 good enough (which I'm sure it will be) then people will surely want more for the RTW engine, if good mods are still being produced on it.
So why not wait for ETW to come out and see if that is any good for modding (which it ought to be with such a high faction limit), then try to mod that from the start? Yes it would be hard work, I can appreciate that, but if the direction of the mod will be altered by working with a M2TW modding team, then surely is must be worth it?

[zznɟ ǝɥʇ]

I hope Sig wouldn't raise issue with it, but to me, there's a good chance. If someone wants to chat with him about it when they approach him, I think that would be a good idea.

I agree with Nellup and Gotthard, ultimately.

[pacco]

I agree with Nellup and Gotthard too.
And If we go on M2, why we need some other team to work on it, I think that M2 engine is not something strange to us, we can work on M2 like RS team (only).
We can start now to explore all part of the M2 engine, but primary is RS2, ofcourse.

[dvk901]

One of my concerns, which I have expressed to Tone and Cherry, is simply the 'immensity' of a project that seeks to alter the entire game structure in order to present a timeperiod. I'll give you an example.

In just trying to change a graphical file in RTW that deals with 'A' tree, I've found that you can edit, change, copy, tear out your hair all you want...but you can't change anything unless you delete 'descr_vegetation.db' and 'descr_vegetation.txt', and a bunch of other files, and then let the game recreate them. I got instructions, for corn's sake, and followed them to the 'T'....and it didn't work. So I tried other things, NOT deleting a few things...whatever, none of it works. I even tried to follow NTW2's example where they changed the tress......but they basically changed them ONLY for Northern Europe...so I found it impossible to duplicate what they did because they removed the rest of the RTW climates.

Then I did some more reading and searching thru the forums and found that even EB...with all their resources....had a hell of a time just changing one tree on the battlemap......one stinking palm tree! They said there are probable only 10-11 people in the WORLD who know how to do this, and many are no longer around.

Now I read this, and I shudder. Because you (generically speaking) want to change hundreds of graphical battlemap files in order to make 14th century MTW2 look like 3rd century BC RTW? Sure, it's easy to say truthfully that MTW2 has better graphics, and I see from investigating why it does. But I also see that even to change ONE tree involves a level of time and work, and know-how that I see few people having, and even fewer people willing to do. Heck, we can't even get a 2D artist to do our banners.

So, personally, I think most mods for MTW2 that try to do this are going to do a 'RTW Res Gestae' and go belly up. Too much work, too few people with the time. And if you have never modded something, you have NO idea the time involved. I, however, can tell you that changing MTW2 into a Roman Republic Era mod would be the stone cold 'umentionable' from 'umentionable' project.

My question, therefore, is why 're-invent the wheel'. Why not use MTW2 for what it is? Maybe it would fit better with a Justinian Era mod, or a hypothetical 'Contantinople' mod in 1453AD. Use it for what it is, in otherwords, rather than trying to make it something it wasn't written to be. I just can't see any point in redoing a crapload of graphics that someone already did just because you need a different century.

[MarcusTullius]

My question, therefore, is why 're-invent the wheel'. Why not use MTW2 for what it is? Maybe it would fit better with a Justinian Era mod, or a hypothetical 'Contantinople' mod in 1453AD. Use it for what it is, in otherwords, rather than trying to make it something it wasn't written to be. I just can't see any point in redoing a crapload of graphics that someone already did just because you need a different century.

Thats a brilliant period of history, especially with emerging powers and a hugely declining influence of Romans across the world...it could definately work!

[tone]

Hmm....maybe we just stick with RTW after all? And do our utmost to improve the graphics on it to the max.

There is no way that I can continue modding at the sort of pace that I have been the last year, so a move to M2TW without a significant increase in personel would be unsustainable personally.

Like cherry though I do appreciate having my work used by the maximum number of people....

What about an EB2 submod? I think our historicity has now probably earned some more respect from them....I don't know, what do people think? I know they're still desperate for unit creators and skinners and all sorts of bods.

Bottom line - I can finish RS2, improve and tweak, but can't be the 3D supremo of another mod, producing hundreds of models and skins. I could produce some units, just not this many again.

[cherryfunk]

I find M2 to be a far less immersive game than RTW and to a large extent prefer the simple graphics in Rome to the jazzed up graphics of M2.

I've been playing more M2, Nellup, and I see what you mean -- it is more difficult to get into a campaign in that game. You're absolutely correct. But since the engine is essentially the same, and all the major differences I can find are actually improvements, it can't be the game engine that causes this lack of 'immersion' -- it has to be the time frame, the factions, the units, and the mods. If we made a really solid Roman mod -- took what we've done with RS and transplanted it -- how could it possibly fail to be an effective game that 'grabs' the fans? What I'm proposing would, I think, fix the problem you have with M2, rather than fall victim to it.

So why not wait for ETW to come out and see if that is any good for modding (which it ought to be with such a high faction limit), then try to mod that from the start? Yes it would be hard work, I can appreciate that, but if the direction of the mod will be altered by working with a M2TW modding team, then surely is must be worth it?

An interesting idea, but the effort involved in modding ETW will certainly be much greater than that involved in modding M2. I figure you can tack another 2 years onto our development time if we want to take that path.

So, personally, I think most mods for MTW2 that try to do this are going to do a 'RTW Res Gestae' and go belly up. Too much work, too few people with the time.

You could be right, dvk. That's why I'm proposing that we A) team up, and B) offer something that, for the moment, takes none of our time. We give the PI team access to our units. They save time, and are willing to share their work in return. If, a year down the road, they've had no success changing the 3D buildings (which are, really, the major block to a Roman era mod) -- well, we haven't lost anything. We're still working away on RS2 and, if we like, RS3. But if they succeed, then we can move over to the new engine. For at least the next 6 months we're going to be busy finishing and polishing RS2 for the RTW engine, so why not offer them our work, and see if they have any success? I don't see how we have anything to lose.

What about an EB2 submod? I think our historicity has now probably earned some more respect from them....I don't know, what do people think? I know they're still desperate for unit creators and skinners and all sorts of bods.

Not a bad idea, if they'd be up for it. The problem is that we'd be more of a direct challenge to their mod, then we would to PI. However, if we agree to go with an Empire-centric mod (~40BC) rather than a 3rd century mod, maybe there would be enough difference.

In reality, what EB2, PI:TW and RG:TW should do is all team up on the common problems of converting the M2 environment to the Roman environment.

Maybe what we should propose is a 'consortium' of all four mods, to share any progress on the most difficult challenges... :hmmm:

[Nellup]

An interesting idea, but the effort involved in modding ETW will certainly be much greater than that involved in modding M2. I figure you can tack another 2 years onto our development time if we want to take that path.

Possibly, but without ETW being released, how can we tell how difficult it will be? Certainly it could be the same or even less difficult to mod than M2, although I agree, knowing CA, that it probably would be more difficult.

What about an EB2 submod? I think our historicity has now probably earned some more respect from them....I don't know, what do people think? I know they're still desperate for unit creators and skinners and all sorts of bods.

On a personal level, I dislike EB and its creators, I find them arrogant and disdainful of any achievement but their own (of course this is speaking of them as a while, not as individuals).
On a modding level, I think they would try to take control of a mod team that joined with them even more than any other mod would. EB is a great modding achievement, but I find to be too realistic, and therefore it loses its fun factor.

[zznɟ ǝɥʇ]

IIRC there's only a few guys that are working/have the knowledge to crack the building files.
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=89573

Of course I bet EB is working on it now.

[Gotthard]

If we're going to move, we might as well let others do the hard work of figuring out how to mod everything... which is STILL going on in RTW. But with the improvements... a lot of things stayed the same.

64 more building trees, but only 9 levels per tree. Still 200 map regions. There's not even a lot of info on the twcenter forums about modding it... I think for efficiency's sake, we should spend our time *creating* and not *figuring out* how to create. Sure, we might lose fans over the interim... maybe... but I think we'll pick up at least as many with a release like DvK has planned.

In theory, it sounds good to get everyone together to figure everything out... but especially when mods are competing for fans, that can fall apart quickly. I've seen it happen before, and it happens in all modding environments to some degree. They'll be more likely to share if we're not directly competing for attention... besides, the waning popularity of EB (even without an EB2 to play) and RS's increasing popularity speak to the work the team has done so far. Certainly, the modding environment might change in months it's going to take to get RS2 ready, but until CA releases some more information about how the game works we're probably better off sticking with what we know.

However, if the team decides to do a mod closer to the time period of MTW2, say 1400's... I'd be all for that. I actually know something about that time period, and enjoy it more than ancient roman times. If DvK hadn't made such a fun mod, I probably wouldn't be playing RTW again anyway.

Finally, a quick check for people who haven't played anything but RS in a while. Load up Vanilla. Look at the map (not for too long, mind you. It'll hurt). Then load up the RS 1.5. Thats how much the graphics have gotten better on just the MAP. I think we've got a LOT more we can do.

[edit]

EB isn't NEARLY as realistic as they claim to be. Especially with tings like unit balance, economics, and characters/traits, some of it is good individually, but combines together patchy, at best.

Also, if a RTW game comes out that IS mod friendly, we should move to that immediately. Until that happens, we're best sticking with what we know. That building thread made my head hurt, and I've been staring at hex for a week now.

[Nellup]

Finally, a quick check for people who haven't played anything but RS in a while. Load up Vanilla. Look at the map (not for too long, mind you. It'll hurt). Then load up the RS 1.5. Thats how much the graphics have gotten better on just the MAP. I think we've got a LOT more we can do.

I did this the other day, and tried a few turns of a Brutii campaign - I was crying by the end of it.

I agree with what you say about EB - they tried too hard I think and tried to combine too many elements, which would have been good individually, but together it is too much.

[MarcusTullius]

Finally, a quick check for people who haven't played anything but RS in a while. Load up Vanilla. Look at the map (not for too long, mind you. It'll hurt). Then load up the RS 1.5. Thats how much the graphics have gotten better on just the MAP. I think we've got a LOT more we can do.

I'd be incline to say the same thing. Looking at what DVK was able to do with some of the MTW files inserted into RTW and the difference it made to, for example, the sea and how much better it looked, i think that we could take this mod much further in terms of graphics and gameplay.

[cherryfunk]

One thing I've noticed -- the screenshots from RTR - The Iberian Conflict look very nice, especially the vegetation, skies, etc. Anyone tried it? Maybe we can do some of the things they've done?