Morale in RS

[Astaroth]

Well yeah I guess the title says it all

Why do the RS units have that high morale? Well it seems they do to me at least...

Is it really realistic that a unit of 120 men will only break when you charge at it several times with up to 4 different units and kill roughly 70-80 of their guys?

While RS is way better than vanilla RTW, this feature bugs me a bit. Especially battles vs phalangites become very tedious when the §$§$§$"§ phalanx just wont break, even if you flank it/attack its rear many times and outnumber it 4-1.

If you face a full stack army of mainly phalanx units its soooo annoying because you have to kill one phalanx after another by simply killing them basically to the last man. Its a massacre, instead of just running when being completely outnumbered, the stupid guys just wont break.

With other units it's annoying as well of course, but with the phalanx ones its a nightmare. It becomes a war of attrition.

In RTW you can often simply charge into the rear of a pinned down phalanx unit and it will rout.

While the top phalanx guys will probably fight bravely, I'm sure that at least militia-average spear guys would breaki much more quikly than here...

[century x]

I can agree with you that sometimes units won't rout even though there surrounded and cavarly charges in the back. BUt the morale is high probaly to have longer battles. Also what difficulty you playing?

[Samuel Adams]

In ancient times, if you broke-you died. Especially with Phalanx/phalangite warfare. Thus even if your morale would have been low, it was high due to the fact that those who broke and ran suffered a bad case of DEATH !! That's kind of a good incentive not to break imho!

[Ian Altano]

If you're not satisfied, you can always change morale in export_descr_unit.txt in your Data folder. go to the line that says: 'stat mental' and fiddle with the numbers. You can also changed trained to untrained for exmaple, on that very same line. This will effect unit morale.

I must say I kinda agree with you, as I immediately recognized the scene: fighting a phalanx that fights to the last man..

EDIT: but Horton III is right though; it was break or die!

[Gotthard]

Morale is high, this is true, and perhaps sometimes too high. But it does force you to think more about timing your charges, and manipulate battlefield conditions to your advantage.

For example, make sure to time charges correctly. Hitting a unit from behind while it is charging in another direction can be DEVASTATING. As can charges from 2 directions. Use high mass units to your advantage, break up the unit with one cavalry unit, and then when it's spread, and they're pulling out, hit them with a second. Hit multiple units with rear/side charges as well, bad morale tends to propagate across lines. I've broken entire barbarian armies with well timed charges by 6 heavy cavalry units into their rear.

Try to time ranged fire as well. I don't have my principes on autofire, I wait until they are ALL in range, and then fire them all at once. I try to keep a reserve pilum for rear attacks, throwing a salvo in an enemies rear is particularly devastating with these AP weapons, as they have no shield bonus (which is worth twice as much, per point, as armor versus ranged attacks!) A charge to the back, after their lines have been broken up by ranged fire, even with a standard hastatii/principe, can do wonders.

Phalanx are my biggest problem, I know it was break or die, but when you're panicked that doesn't occur to you... certainly when fighting only from the front they should be very solid, by a rear attack to phalanx would have been pretty bad, even for elite units. A militia phalanx should crack immediately.

[dvk901]

Morale happens to be a big factor, IMHO in having good battles in RTW. Notice, I said: "Good battles in RTW". It is not necessarily so that morale would be so high that a unit would never break, or fight beyond what you think is reasonable......BUT, as Horton III said, in the case of phalanx units, breaking the phalanz is tantemount to bending over and kissing it goodbye. So why would you break if you knew that from training and experience?

Also, better morale is the reason you will see units in RS1.5....far more often than I've ever seen in other mods...break and run, then stop, regroup, and come at you again. You think you've won because a unit of armored warriors ran...only to see them regroup and come after you elsewhere.

I much prefer the 'mechanics' of this over giving units 2 hitpoints to make battles last longer. Also, I haven't really had that bad a time with phalanx units, I guess. I normally test H\H, and if I 'pin' them in the front and then charge a unit of cavalry into them, they'll break. The key is to be PATIENT. Especially if you're playing as the Romans, Roman units can pin them effectively and not take that many losses if they aren't in 'guard' mode. (In guard mode, a phalanx will mow them like grass!) The, wait......the guys iin the phalanx are going to get tired.....and then hit them from the back.

[Squid]

I'm pretty sure this is an RTW shortcoming, as you can't say have good morale if attacked from the front, and bad morale if attacked from the side or rear, you just have one morale setting.

[Gotthard]

Another thing when fighting factions with a lot of velite/hastatii type units (Spain/Carthage) - wait until they stop running, and start to reform for throwing pilum/javelins, before launching your own. They do not receive their shield value (or it's vastly reduced) when they are in the 'throwing' animation (which is a lot more realistic than I thought it would be). At the same time, make sure this doesn't happen to you. I kill 3-8 elite african infantry with a salvo from my hastatii, but if I time it right when they're throwing, this can go as high as 15-20.

[Astaroth]

Well the thing is, in RS the higher morale seems to lessen the impact you have on the battle outcome.

In vanilla RTW you can break a vastly superior horde by simply charging fast and hard with several units at one of his and make it rout, causing a mass rout. Then just mow down the guys who run away and you'll often get 5% casualities to 95% on the AI's side and plenty of heroic victories... (thats on H/H nilla)

I dunno, of course battles are faster like that, but I miss it a bit.

Why should battles last longer than in vanilla anyway? The thing is, I often am just tired of battle after battle that have no big impact on the campaign role playing - and its also not exactly fun having to defeat 4 stacks in a row in one turn who come after you one after another on the very same battlefield - especially fun when they are ALL almost full phalanx armies... of course you will win but it takes AGES.

[cherryfunk]

The thing is, I often am just tired of battle after battle that have no big impact on the campaign role playing - and its also not exactly fun having to defeat 4 stacks in a row in one turn who come after you one after another on the very same battlefield

One-turn recruitment...

[Astaroth]

One-turn recruitment...

I dont mind the NUMBER of battles but rather the time it takes PER BATTLE! =)

4 battles in a row would be np if they didnt take so long each...

And 0-turn recruitment is awesome, nothing as cool as being able to build like 5 whole legions in 1 turn

[Cyphon88]

Im starting a 1 turn roman campaign today/tomorrow. lets see how it goes

[Coldcall]

I think the morale is about right in RS. As other posters have pointed out, in ancient times war was pretty ruthless and if you were surrounded you were probably going to die anyway.

I play on VH and find only about 10% of enemy units fight to the death; most usually rout at some point. Also in my recent campaign the AI has kind of disengaged midway from battles it was losing quickly and badly and run off without routing in an orderly retreat, and not having many horse i could not run down their retreating spear units.

[Astaroth]

"if you were surrounded you were probably going to die anyway. "

Yes but a militia hoplit/phalanx guy wont think about this but just run :p

"I play on VH and find only about 10% of enemy units fight to the death; most usually rout at some point."

Yes, at some point, when they have taken ~70%+ casualities per unit... at the very least a militia phalanx has to lose ~50% of his men.

In RTW you can rout units without killing any of their men

[Caius Antonius]

A phalanx, if getting hit in the back by cavalry, has no chance of surviving as it's impossible to turn around with their 6 meter (18 feet) phalangites in such a tight formation.

This has indeed happened in 197 BC when the roman general Titus Quinctius Flaminius defeated Philip V of Macedon at the Battle of Cynoscephalae, by distracting the phalanxes to the infantry and flaking them with the horsemen. Seeing that they've been surrounded, the macedonians raised their spears as a surrender message. The Romans didn't know about that so they massacred them all.

In RTW however, the phalanx has a great mobility and can turn 360 degrees without any problems, and can slaughter the cavalry in no time. This should be tweaked somehow, so the phalanx shatters faster if charged from behind.

[pcaravel]

In RTW however, the phalanx has a great mobility and can turn 360 degrees without any problems, and can slaughter the cavalry in no time. This should be tweaked somehow, so the phalanx shatters faster if charged from behind.

I couldn't agree more! In all cases, a phalanx charged from behind was (and should be in RS2) dead.

Especially if you're playing as the Romans, Roman units can pin them effectively and not take that many losses if they aren't in 'guard' mode. (In guard mode, a phalanx will mow them like grass!)

I hadn't noticed that. Good tip! But why is this happening? I thought 'guard' mode reduced casualties and tired troops a lot less.

[Brusilov]

I hadn't noticed that. Good tip! But why is this happening? I thought 'guard' mode reduced casualties and tired troops a lot less.

I would imagine that this is the exception rather than the rule.

I also usually fight units on guard mode - I've been caught out several times by units chasing after routing units only to be surrounded. There could also be a gap in the line which the AI may exploit.

I would presume the advantage of setting guard mode off against a phalanx is that your unit could surround a phalanx easier and get the advantage of kills against the flank and rear of the phalanx - areas where it's better to attack than frontally.

When using a phalanx heavy army I will always make sure that the flanks are protected - even if it's just with Eastern Infantry (on guard mode).

@Cyphon88 - a one turn recruitment game has less full stack army groups wandering around. It can still happen but nothing like the 0 turn recruitment.

[Coldcall]

If I am fighting a big army made up of hoplites and phalanx I just let them come to me and do not attack the phalanx. Better to allow your front line defend against the phalanx while you send some cohorts and horse around the sides and back. I use a rolling manouvre by using mobile troops to defeat the phalanxs at the extremes of the enemy line and then keep mving towards their centre. Its a bit like peeling a banana and usually doesnt get too many of my troops killed during the engagement.

Also horse charges against the back of a phalanx should be quick and sharp. So they should charge, withdraw and charge again. If you leave even a heavy cavalry unit in a melee with a phalanx it will eventually be destroyed. Better to keep repeating the charges.

[lolgast]

If you have problems with phalanxes try shooting them in their back with achers. It will be devestating

[Nellup]

Peltasts/velites are also pretty damaging for a phalanx, and the difference is they usually do some damage when hitting the front, although getting them around the sides or rear is much more effective.