The Kevin Rudd era: Australia moved from being America's clingy Pacific girlfriend to China's trained monkey...

[NakedBarbarian2]

I think Kevin Rudd's refusal to condemn the brutal suppresion of rioters in Tibet(by default giving tacit approval to China's 'peacemaking' methodology), coupled with Japans continuing territorial violation of Australian maritme boundarious and the deteriorating international relationship over the contentious whaling issue is a sign of things to come, despite Rudd's assurances to the U.S. that our alliance is stronger than ever.

Rudds sympathies towards the Chinese cause and obsession with Chinese culture, is patently evident, other than the fact that he speaks fluent mandarin chinese.

As critical as i am of American foreign policy of late, I can still ackwoledge that the American alliance is vital, as currently there is no political will to pursue nuclear weaponry, even tho we have abundant uranium and possess the knowledge to make ICBM's (through our participation with NASA in Australia). I find this concerning given the U.S. military presence is being withdrawn/slowly reduced from Asia-Pacific, Japan is slowly re-militarising with U.S. support and the past support of the former conservative Australian administration, China and Japan and beginning to butt heads over the discovery of vast oil deposits in parts of the sea of Japan (which China claims as part of Chinese territory), Chinese resentmen and anger over Japan's continuing denial of warcrimes commited against China during WW2, and finally, the fact China is increasingly having to deal with a timeframe in which to intergrate Taiwan back into China(my university lecturer said that it HAS to happen in the next twenty years or it won't happen at all).

All of these things may sow the seeds of a conflict in North Asia that will be terrible in scale, and inevitably Australia will be forced to pick sides between China and the U.S. If we pick the U.S., China may sever economic ties with AUstralia, which will be devastating given China is soon to become our largest trading partner. If we pick China, it will irrepairably harm our relationship with the Americans.

What do you think Rudd will do?

What do you think is the future of Asia-Pacific?

[Exarch]

I think Kevin Rudd's refusal to condemn the brutal suppresion of rioters in Tibet(by default giving tacit approval to China's 'peacemaking' methodology), coupled with Japans continuing territorial violation of Australian maritme boundarious and the deteriorating international relationship over the contentious whaling issue is a sign of things to come, despite Rudd's assurances to the U.S. that our alliance is stronger than ever.

um, in case u havent noticed, all the other countries eg EU have also toed the same line by asking china to 'show restraint'

Rudds sympathies towards the Chinese cause and obsession with Chinese culture, is patently evident, other than the fact that he speaks fluent mandarin chinese.

so just because he' takes the effort to learn chinese as part of his diplomatic training, it automatically means he's a sinophile? you probably read the piers akerman editorial in the herald yesterday.
does my learning german mean i have EU sympathies and an obsession with occidental culture?

As critical as i am of American foreign policy of late, I can still ackwoledge that the American alliance is vital, as currently there is no political will to pursue nuclear weaponry, even tho we have abundant uranium and possess the knowledge to make ICBM's (through our participation with NASA in Australia).

agreed, we have alot of potential to become a major power.

China and Japan and beginning to butt heads over the discovery of vast oil deposits in parts of the sea of Japan (which China claims as part of Chinese territory), Chinese resentmen and anger over Japan's continuing denial of warcrimes commited against China during WW2,

they have every right to be pissed. have u been to the nanjing massacre museum?

and finally, the fact China is increasingly having to deal with a timeframe in which to intergrate Taiwan back into China(my university lecturer said that it HAS to happen in the next twenty years or it won't happen at all).

could i have some more info on this pls.

All of these things may sow the seeds of a conflict in North Asia that will be terrible in scale, and inevitably Australia will be forced to pick sides between China and the U.S. If we pick the U.S., China may sever economic ties with AUstralia, which will be devastating given China is soon to become our largest trading partner. If we pick China, it will irrepairably harm our relationship with the Americans.

we australians are pragmatic. we'll make whatever choice is most beneficial to us.

What do you think Rudd will do?

too soon to tell.

What do you think is the future of Asia-Pacific

ap[lenty

[jankren]

Geographically speaking, it would be very wise for Australia to keep good relation with the big boy next door rather than insisting on putting too much faith on someone else across the huge ocean who probably would be too busy minding his own problems anyway when Australia needed urgent help ...

To be honest, as a direct neighbor, Australia has always felt foreign to me and probably most other Asians. It seems like a Crusader state in the middle of Saracen controlled Middle East. I mean the country does not have close relationships with its surrounding neighbors which I think kind of weird.

Anyway, Im just curious how can Australia remain almost 100% occidental after hundreds of years of existence in the heart of oriental land.

[NakedBarbarian2]

To be honest, as a direct neighbor, Australia has always felt foreign to me and probably most other Asians. It seems like a Crusader state in the middle of Saracen controlled Middle East. I mean the country does not have close relationships with its surrounding neighbors which I think kind of weird..

That may have something to do with a certain recalcitrant ex-Malaysian prime-minister saying Australian's will never be accepted into the Southeast asian community until atleast half the population is asian.

The whole calling australia a crusader state thing doesn't help the average perception of indonesians being suicide bomber fantatics who give lenient sentences to terrorists but execute you for having a bag of pot:hmmm:

EDIT: Even if Australia had never been colonized by any european power, we can be pretty much assured it would have been grabbed by the ever expanding Javanese in the 1970's just like Timor and Irian Jaya.

[jankren]

That may have something to do with a certain recalcitrant ex-Malaysian prime-minister saying Australian's will never be accepted into the Southeast asian community until atleast half the population is asian.

What's your opinion on this? Does anyone think he's right; or with th current Pro China standing Australia seems to be heading to will this actually happen?

Obviously when John Howard said Australia is the US sheriff in Southeast Asia that did not give good vibes toward its regional neighbors. Such stance is what makes Australia even more foreign for us Asians. For us Australia gives the impression that they dont wanna be one of us in the first place.

The whole calling australia a crusader state thing doesn't help the average perception of indonesians being suicide bomber fantatics who give lenient sentences to terrorists but execute you for having a bag of pot:hmmm:

Abu Bakr Bashir was only slightly related to the Bali Bombing and its the tradition to give all prisoners term reduction on our independence day. Besides, all three of the main orchestrators of the bombing have been granted death penalty.

As for the Crusade analogy, its only an analogy. No need to be overly sensitive. It seems Warluster understood me well.

Even if Australia had never been colonized by any european power, we can be pretty much assured it would have been grabbed by the ever expanding Javanese in the 1970's just like Timor and Irian Jaya.

Irrelevant argument.

The fact is; it hasn't. Australia has a massive Asian population in it; that's the whole Sydney riots stuff a couple of year's ago and several riots since are all about.

I was talking more about culture rather than demographic. You know Australia seems to be almost untouched by the culture of its surroundings after hundreds of years.

where as Australia's kinda like the lone white guy who moves into an all asian neighbourhood ...

and choose to keep to himself instead of go out and try to make friends with his new 'exotic' neighbors and show that he wanna be part of the hood.

[warluster]

Geographically speaking, it would be very wise for Australia to keep good relation with the big boy next door rather than insisting on putting too much faith on someone else across the huge ocean who probably would be too busy minding his own problems anyway when Australia needed urgent help ...

I fully agree with this; it happened slightly during WWII. Though if you started a war you could nuke each other, I don't think this would happen.
A) Most people fear such a war.
B) If such a war broke out between these two power's they'd either nuke each other to hell, or at least attempt to keep the peace (Well at least some nation's would clamber. I can imagine a America (backed by Europe) against a China (backed by Asia and the Middle East( type war.

To be honest, as a direct neighbor, Australia has always felt foreign to me and probably most other Asians. It seems like a Crusader state in the middle of Saracen controlled Middle East. I mean the country does not have close relationships with its surrounding neighbors which I think kind of weird.

Partially true; Australia is never been close with Indonesia, actually the two have been quite, not hateful, but not friendly.

With New Zealand though Australia is close; and with PNG, those two being the most, and probably Singapore because of the war and our history there...

Anyway, Im just curious how can Australia remain almost 100% occidental after hundreds of years of existence in the heart of oriental land.

The fact is; it hasn't. Australia has a massive Asian population in it; that's the whole Sydney riots stuff a couple of year's ago and several riots since are all about.

The whole calling australia a crusader state thing doesn't help the average perception of indonesians being suicide bomber fantatics who give lenient sentences to terrorists but execute you for having a bag of pot...

Hehehe...

That may have something to do with a certain recalcitrant ex-Malaysian prime-minister saying Australian's will never be accepted into the Southeast asian community until atleast half the population is asian.

What's your opinion on this? Does anyone think he's right; or with th current Pro China standing Australia seems to be heading to will this actually happen?

Do not fret my brother. After what you ANZAC boys did for us (Brits) in WWI and II, we'll never let you guys down. My great-grandfather loved you guys so much. I remember him saying "Aussies never run". We got your back.

Good to know; your great - grandfather; did he fight in one of the war's? (I or II?) Where'd he fight?

[NakedBarbarian2]

What's your opinion on this? Does anyone think he's right; or with th current Pro China standing Australia seems to be heading to will this actually happen?

My Opinion? Dr Mahatir was probably right when he said Australia will never be accepted by Asians until its population is 50% asian, thats because as much as the Indonesian and Malaysian press likes to portray Australia as a racist 'apartheid' style society(which is BS) South East Asians are just as prone to racism and xenophobia as anybody else.

Australia will never be 50% Asian, ever, in fact the majority of Australian immigrants who pursue citizenship come from New Zealand, Britain and Eastern Europe, so they are either anglo, slavic, or Maori.

IMHO this all comes back to the age old problem that will ALWAYS burden Australia; We are an essentially EUROPEAN country is an essentially ASIAN neighbourhood. We will never be accepted by Europe because we are located in Asia, and we will never be accepted by Asia because we look too european. Thats why IMHO Aussies share a cultural affinity with the Americans as both countries are NEW WORLD societies. The big difference is that the U.S. share bordes with two new world societies canada and mexico, where as Australia's kinda like the lone white guy who moves into an all asian neighbourhood.

I don't think the current Pro china administration will lead to a 50% asian population, but as is the trend with Labor administrations in Australia, the immigration 'allowance' quota will probably once more be raised to an unsustainable level which will lead to high unemployment. Conversely it was this exact same higher immigration quota that allowed for my family to flee here from the balkan war...

[Exarch]

My Opinion? Dr Mahatir was probably right when he said Australia will never be accepted by Asians until its population is 50% asian, thats because as much as the Indonesian and Malaysian press likes to portray Australia as a racist 'apartheid' style society(which is BS) South East Asians are just as prone to racism and xenophobia as anybody else....

both malaysia and indonesia have predominantly islamic influences in their politics. you have to realize that we only did away with the white australia policy completely back in the 70s. as far as places go, sydney, melbourne and the gold coast are places where asians have a major presence.

Australia will never be 50% Asian, ever, in fact the majority of Australian immigrants who pursue citizenship come from New Zealand, Britain and Eastern Europe, so they are either anglo, slavic, or Maori.

whatdoers it matter if australia becomes 50% european or asian? it doesnt matter where they come from. i've always taken pride in the fact that australia is more of a melting pot of cultures than america; our friendly attitude is a major factor methinks

IMHO this all comes back to the age old problem that will ALWAYS burden Australia; We are an essentially EUROPEAN country is an essentially ASIAN neighbourhood. We will never be accepted by Europe because we are located in Asia, and we will never be accepted by Asia because we look too european.

we dont need to belong to any sphere, nakedbarbarian, i believe this is what makes us truly unique as a country. we are, like canada, amongst the truest multicultural countries in the world. i know indians and asians who display more australian values of mateship and knowing who our first prime minister was, than most other anglo australians.

Thats why IMHO Aussies share a cultural affinity with the Americans as both countries are NEW WORLD societies. The big difference is that the U.S. share bordes with two new world societies canada and mexico, where as Australia's kinda like the lone white guy who moves into an all asian neighbourhood.

and what's wrong with a lone white family moving into an all asian neighbourhood?

I don't think the current Pro china administration will lead to a 50% asian population, but as is the trend with Labor administrations in Australia, the immigration 'allowance' quota will probably once more be raised to an unsustainable level which will lead to high unemployment. Conversely it was this exact same higher immigration quota that allowed for my family to flee here from the balkan war

c'mon nakedbarbarian.
i had more faith in you. you honestly believe that allowing more asians into the country is going to more adversely affect oz, than allowing european or american immigrants in?
typical lib.
if anything, more asian business based in australia is a boon to our economy. not to mention the technical know-how that currently pioneers our fields in science.
asian immigration is not a bad thing IMO; i reckon you're more afraid of losing your own current cultural identity of identifying with a predominantly white australia; the kind of australia that initiated the WAP (white australia policy) due to fears of miscegenation (it always comes down to sex)

[NakedBarbarian2]

whatdoers it matter if australia becomes 50% european or asian? it doesnt matter where they come from. i've always taken pride in the fact that australia is more of a melting pot of cultures than america; our friendly attitude is a major factor methinks

It doesn't really, only to the Indonesian and Malaysian regimes. It's going to take a while for the 'ex colony' chip on the shoulder to wear off, i can't blame them for being resentful. In Australia it only really matters to 60+ age gap(who also happen to be the biggest conservatives, racists and monarchists) but they'll be dead soon.

we dont need to belong to any sphere, nakedbarbarian, i believe this is what makes us truly unique as a country. we are, like canada, amongst the truest multicultural countries in the world. i know indians and asians who display more australian values of mateship and knowing who our first prime minister was, than most other anglo australians.

Currently Australians defence is completely on the good will of its allies, unless we pursue nuclear weapons (which i whole heartedly support) that will be the only way we will ever have a truly independent foreign policy. Australia can't really be compared to Canada, i'd say culturally we are equally mellowed out, but canada has never had any hostile neighbours (other than America 200 years ago) whereas Australia is slave to the constant paranoia of 'the yellow peril', which then evolved into 'Reds under the beds'(read Chinese, Koreans and Vietnamese) which then evolved into 'the boat people' and now has currently evolved into Jihadi asian muslims, and as i said earlier, islamic regimes that pardon mass murderers whilst stringing up petty drug crooks doesn't help this perception.

I too have many friends not from an anglo background who show aussie values better than locals, i am an immigrant too and experienced discrimination (actually mainly from serbian pigs).

and what's wrong with a lone white family moving into an all asian neighbourhood?

Nothing really, tho its not pleasant when nobody likes you other than this little short guy called Singapore.

c'mon nakedbarbarian.
i had more faith in you. you honestly believe that allowing more asians into the country is going to more adversely affect oz, than allowing european or american immigrants in?
typical lib.
if anything, more asian business based in australia is a boon to our economy. not to mention the technical know-how that currently pioneers our fields in science.
asian immigration is not a bad thing IMO; i reckon you're more afraid of losing your own current cultural identity of identifying with a predominantly white australia; the kind of australia that initiated the WAP (white australia policy) due to fears of miscegenation (it always comes down to sex)

I really don't believe allowing 'asians' in is going to adversely affect the country, i never suggested any such idea, other than i don't think it will happen. So far as allowing europeans in i only quoted stats, infact our largest population of illegal immigrants comes from new zealand!

Typical Lib? I didn't even vote in the last election, no choice; either an old out of touch fart, or a shameless populist - i took the fine. In retrospect i shoulda voted for the 'red tomatoe party' or the 'free marijuana party' like i did in the state election.

Scared of losing my cultural identity? i don't even really think i have one; i don't consider myself a Croat even tho i was born in croatia, im proud of being Australian, but other than mateship and drinking beer, is there really a 'culture' in teh sense of french culture or chinese culture? mayb it will just take a couple more hundred years to develop, we are a relatively new country.

And i most certainly don't support a return to WAP; thats one side of australian history that im not proud of.

[jankren]

Partially true; Australia is never been close with Indonesia, actually the two have been quite, not hateful, but not friendly.

This is actually very unfortunate. Why? Because as far as I know Australia was one of the first countries that supported Indonesia's independence from the Dutch pigs (Lol jk ) and both countries' relation was considerably good. But somehow as times go by the relation gets worse which culminated in the East Timor problem.

[Heinz Guderian]

All of these things may sow the seeds of a conflict in North Asia that will be terrible in scale, and inevitably Australia will be forced to pick sides between China and the U.S. If we pick the U.S., China may sever economic ties with AUstralia, which will be devastating given China is soon to become our largest trading partner. If we pick China, it will irrepairably harm our relationship with the Americans.

What do you think is the future of Asia-Pacific?

Do not fret my brother. After what you ANZAC boys did for us (Brits) in WWI and II, we'll never let you guys down. My great-grandfather loved you guys so much. I remember him saying "Aussies never run". We got your back.

[Caelius]

I find this concerning given the U.S. military presence is being withdrawn/slowly reduced from Asia-Pacific

Wait....what? :hmmm:

If anything it's the opposite. The US has been continually transferring more and more forces to S.E. Asia for awhile now, and long term strategic plans see an even larger commitment of troops as other units are shifted out of Europe.

[Burnum]

To be honest, as a direct neighbor, Australia has always felt foreign to me and probably most other Asians. It seems like a Crusader state in the middle of Saracen controlled Middle East. I mean the country does not have close relationships with its surrounding neighbors which I think kind of weird.

Indonesia's economy is Heavily dependent on us.

Link

[Exarch]

china's rise is good for australia's economy dammit
they need us. we need them.
so until this bhp debacle blows over, things'll return to normal

[King Edward III]

None of the "western world" has condemed China's actions in Tibet. Why? Because they're the second largest economy and soon to be superpower.

Just compare the reactions to what happened in Burma not long ago. Is the west hypocritical? Most definately.

[jankren]

No country is more of a melting pot than today's USA. Australia and Canada can claim to be contenders when about 50% of their population have become 'colored'.

[Exarch]

in my xp, a country is truly multicultural when it accepts other cultures rather than imposing the predominant culture upon immigrants, as is the case in the USA.
for this, i believe canada and australia are more multicultural than USA.
have u ever noticed how races tend to keep to themselves in america, hell take LA california for eg. i found it a complete contrast to sydney where the races mixed and were mates woith reah cother

[Trey]

in my xp, a country is truly multicultural when it accepts other cultures rather than imposing the predominant culture upon immigrants, as is the case in the USA.
for this, i believe canada and australia are more multicultural than USA.
have u ever noticed how races tend to keep to themselves in america, hell take LA california for eg. i found it a complete contrast to sydney where the races mixed and were mates woith reah cother

You really don't know what you're talking about.

[Exarch]

You really don't know what you're talking about.

oh?
feel free to enlighten me then

[Last Roman]

have u ever noticed how races tend to keep to themselves in america

ya, that must be why they call America the great melting pot...

and one city is hardly representative of the whole country

personally, I'm glad we're not "multicultural"

only leads to greater division.