Promo of the Final release graphics

[Gaio Giulio Patrizio]

here you can see the new minimap along with some of the new buildings

credits for thsoe ones goes to the naval mod for RTR (the mod that form the base of RB)
we are making also new traits

[El Muerte]

Please.....no more overhand grip....it is inaccurate.
There is not a shread of written evidence that hoplites fought in overhand grip with tumb facing butt-spike,unlike underhand grip.
Aspis and 2.5m long spear and euqipment are not designed for such use....
In not saying they didn't thrust over shields but im saying they didn't held spears in this manner (thumb towards butt-spike).
Herodotus , Xenophon and other mentiones underhand grip.....
Once again they didn't used stabbing grip, becouse it lacks, mobility,speed,recoil it is painful (wrist take all stress instead muscles in underhand grip with thumb facing spear tip) ,tireing and lacks balance and inpractical for back lines to thrust over first line.
I beg you not to import classic missguided overhand grip into this excelent mod.Make your models hold spears in underhand manner but over shields.....or next to them.

[♔Sherlock♔]

Please.....no more overhand grip....it is inaccurate.
There is not a shread of written evidence that hoplites fought in overhand grip with tumb facing butt-spike,unlike underhand grip.
Aspis and 2.5m long spear and euqipment are not designed for such use....
In not saying they didn't thrust over shields but im saying they didn't held spears in this manner (thumb towards butt-spike).
Herodotus , Xenophon and other mentiones underhand grip.....
Once again they didn't used stabbing grip, becouse it lacks, mobility,speed,recoil it is painful (wrist take all stress instead muscles in underhand grip with thumb facing spear tip) ,tireing and lacks balance and inpractical for back lines to thrust over first line.
I beg you not to import classic missguided overhand grip into this excelent mod.Make your models hold spears in underhand manner but over shields.....or next to them.

I have a simple video El Muerte, to show why you are wrong:

[El Muerte]

I have a simple video El Muerte, to show why you are wrong:

LOL good video but quite inaccurate.
And you shown high underhand grip mate Read my last sentence again.
Btw your clishee argument can be applied ONLY if fellow soldier stands behind your right arm and has no shield betewwn you and him
If that was the case then first type of phalanx (like sumerian) would also be overhand wich is not
http://www.shunya.net/Text/Herodotus...ianPhalanx.jpg
I was about to make some videos and photos.....in time i will post them here
In one of my previous posts...i think i posted audio lecutre about hopolites from one of American Uneversitys.If you want it...I can send you a link, just to show you how wrong you are
Is that power point you made this ?

[Gaio Giulio Patrizio]

i'll search better to see what i can find about.at this time we are using the overhead animation from EB animation pack.And i personally think it's historicall...
Follow me for a second .
the hoplite formation was a thik block of people.shields and breastplaces could protect the hoplite for any fontal attack.but,as each shield is overlapped with the one on the right it would have been impossible to thrust from middle...just from overhead...it's said that even blind people can fight in a phalanx(and historically this even happend sometimes) because of this fact.
A phalanx first line was like a wall.I even don't think they attack the enemy.They just push as strong as they can..the third and second lines provided the killing factor.and they can only trhust overhead because of the first line if you think something is wrong tell me.
Yes the stress of this kind of attack is very high,as the hoplite has to use almost all of its muscles,but it also granted a long range attack,necessary to reach behind the fisrt line,and to impress more power to the spear.You could try this by yourself.try to attack from up to down,reaching as fara s you an.And you will see that this is the best way to have a powerfull attack.the hoplite can even rest for a second then because it's weell protected by the first line..

[El Muerte]

Yes the stress of this kind of attack is very high,as the hoplite has to use almost all of its muscles,but it also granted a long range attack,necessary to reach behind the fisrt line,and to impress more power to the spear.You could try this by yourself.try to attack from up to down,reaching as fara s you an.And you will see that this is the best way to have a powerfull attack.

My dear friend.....your thery sounds very well and it is very logical.....bu i think that there is even simplier and more logical solution to this theory:

Yes I did used 2.5m long "spear" (pole).....and thats exaclty why i say that overhand (thumb towards buttspike) is not possible and is more stresful, becouse it lacks mobility,range and you don't engage muscles except shoulder muscels wich are btw small muscle group.While with underhand grip held high, you can fully extend your arm, to reach enemy, and have much more powerful thrust while at same time biceps,triceps and forearm muscles are fully engaged, and you are in balance....you dont need to lean foward.
Main problem with overhand use are 2 crucial things:
1. Having 2.5-2.7 m long spear creates a LOT of leverage if it's held to back and impossible to wield properly with overhand grip if you hold it near butt-spike.Only "logical" solution to this would be to hold spear in midddle wich will brings me to 2nd problem:

2. Holding spear at middle halfs it's lenght and destroys entire concept of spearas weapon wich is - to hold enemy at distance.This will also make a lot problems to guys in back becouse you will have 1.25-1.35 m of spear sticking out behind you.This will only make problems for you to wield spear properly.
Imagine if you try to kill enemy to your front-right (wich is, why overlaping with shields is for) ...you won't be able to do it becouse your spear will hit someone's spear behind , face or body , and also your comrades in rows behind you are obstructed by your spear and are unable to hit enemy with theirs.

I mean what is use of 2.5m spear if you use only half???? Why dont' you use 1.5m spear nad hold it at it's end ??? It is much easier........but here is 3rd problem:
Such lenght WAS used by Persian armys at Marathon or Thermopylae and in both cases...authors describes that Persians were "outgunned" by greek longer spears and heavy armour.

Becouse of all this reasons......i think that spear was not held overhand(thumb towards butt-spike), but rather underhand (thumb towards spear tip) wich was held low, in middle or above shoulder.

And here is quote from a guy who is archeologist and was a tour guide in museums and also one of reenactors :
" If I were behind a man in the front rank, I'd really want him to live as long as possible, so that I would be in less danger. I would not therefore push him forwards to his death. Pushing matches did sometimes happen, perhaps, but I don't believe that they were often anyone's Plan A."
here is youtube videos he has.... pretty good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__mH8Xa7Sto

I also disagree about pushing match becouse many,many writers describe that sometimes wounded kings, soldiers and even cowards retreated from front ranks to back.
For example Theoprahstus sketches a coward who claims he forgotten his sword and has to go back to the tent or when he (this is importmant part) carrys his colleague back to the camp to treat his wounds rather then to go back to the front line.
All this explains that plhalanx was not so compressed as we may think......
There was room for change of fresh shoilder to come to front line....there is room for king to fall down from wounds in his legs and to retreat on "all fours" (as Xenophon describes this part)...and even enough room for wounded to be carryed out.
So if there is a space for man to pass then there is surely enough space for spear to come between 2 shields...if you get my point.

[Gaio Giulio Patrizio]

when i told that to one of our historician he send me this image.I think more historical than this...This show pretty well the overhead pike,the overlapped shield and the way they hold the spear...Our historician Karma will come here for futher explanation he said

[El Muerte]

yea yea.....famous chigi vase......I can get you twice as much with underhand grip mate...

The problem is.....thats the one and only thing that can back up overhand usage - vase..
Vase - artistis like....non -soldiers......unlike Xenophon ?
Or unlike historians who base thir knowladge on facts instead of artistic expressions ?

But even chigi vase goes against overhand......people see what they want to see..

Anyway....look at position of elbow....it is impossible to hold your arm and hold spear overhand(thumb facing buttspike).
And if you look very closely to soldier to left....you'll see little pinky.
That little pinky si to the left side...so it means it's underhand grip mate held very high.
If it's index finger...then where's the thumb....and how on earth can you bend your arm that way ?
And since when Hoplites fought barefoot??? Have you seen how most of Greece looks like? ?!?!?!

I rest my case....

[Gaio Giulio Patrizio]

ok.Two things.First this part shows pretty well that the inc is over the spear so that one is held overhead.

Second how on your opinion the third line of a so close formation can have had the place to strike the way you say?it would require to move your body on a sort of contortion,to strike from under the first 2 lines. and hoplites were so compressed in their formation that i even think someone died cause it can't breathe
show us those vases you are talking about.I'm interested.But open a new topic in this section.here it's Off Topic

[El Muerte]

I didn't said at single moment that 2nd and 3rd row stroke underhand, below shields.I said they held spear in undrhand manner but raised it over shields.
btw try holding overhand like on vase...see if it is possible to strech arm that far behind :and hold spear frimly at same time.D
As i said before i trust more historians, soldiers and generals then artists.You see Ares fight in battles...but that does not mean it was true
And rest of your vase on both sides shows : soldiers preparing for battle to left ( thats turns off pushing match) and soldiers holding spear underhand to right :
http://www2.unil.ch/iasa/iasa_c_est_...ges/chigi1.jpg
http://www2.unil.ch/iasa/iasa_c_est_...ges/chigi2.jpg
This is most logical thing if you think about it.
lets theorise for a moment and say that you are 2nd line and im 1st line.
If I fall down or retreat, it's up to you to take my place.If you hold spear overhand....ena dhen come in first line you are in trouble becouse if enemy holds spear undrhand ' hes got better strike, more range then you, and can hit you in legs.All those things , you are unble to do.You'll have to change grip in heat of battle wich is most unlikely.
But if you hold spear with underhand grip...once you tak 1st line...you can hit enemy in head,torso or legs (wich were most common target, and that explains the graves).
Also if im about to retreat, It would be difficult for you to unlock your shield ,raise spear (if I hold it overhand in that moment i don't know how would i retreat in time)and make me some room for me to pass.You'll have to lower spear so that tip is stuck to the ground or to juggle your spear changing your grip...wich seems unlikely becouse all this is happening in matter of seond.
But...if you use underhand grip...all you have to do is to raise spear...lettme pass...then lock your shield and low your spear again.
Hoplites done this...Roman legionares done this......it is same technique.
And there is a problem with your theory.....
If there is pushing match...so that soldiers are pushind their comrades.....how do you expect back lines to fight??? They didn't just stood there and pushed.....
Replacments were needed nad ancient writers confirm so...that Hoplites replaced eachother when the one in front gets tired.
All this would be impossible in pushing match.And i dont think that people were suicidal brave to charge on wall of spears...and then pushed their friend or cousin towards deth.

Anyway to cut the long story short:
I find rather ridiculous and absurd for modders to base their assumption on one single source : vases made by god knows who,wich only symbolises and glorifies some act and dont rely on details, while they turn they blind eye on more accurate and valid sources such as, historians, soldiers and generals who seen some action describe hoplite warefare to detail

[Gaio Giulio Patrizio]

ok you convince me that they trhust overhead holding the spear the way you say.but i don't knoww if we are able to change the animation properly.We wil try.

[jermagon]

Great job Gaio can't wait to see the Egyptians

[Gaio Giulio Patrizio]

great

[Gaio Giulio Patrizio]

the RB new forest



a closer look with an accent on new grass on the undeerwood(we have 6 type of grasses XD )








a look at the plain

[Gaio Giulio Patrizio]

new phalanx spears


a closer look

[El Muerte]

They look GREAT !!!!

[Gaio Giulio Patrizio]

great you appreciate

[Maximo X Meridio]

Great work, expecially with the forest!!! XD

[sud commander]

ma chi è che ha fatto gli screen che si vede il deskopt dietro????

[Gaio Giulio Patrizio]

io.XD