Existence of the Supernatural

[Dayman]

What are your opinions on the "supernatural", ghosts, demons, etc? Do they exist? If they do, what are they? If they don't, how can you explain all the stories?

Personally I'm a skeptic and don't believe any of it (it's all anecdotal evidence).

[The Good]

OK, I actually do believe in the supernatural, but it's different than what most would say. I don't believe that "ghosts" are actually the souls of the deceased. They are actually demons impersonating the dead. That makes sense, as I believe when people die, their souls go to heaven or hell. A person's soul does not remain on the earth to haunt it, or dwell on it. So, a person doesn't cease to exist after they die an earthly death.

[Time Commander Bob]

They are actually demons impersonating the dead

Just out of curiosity, where do you think these demons come from and what purpose do you think they serve?

[Osceola]

I actually do allow for reason to believe ghosts and even demons exist. I can't tell you what they are, but there is no evidence against ghosts, and considering the fact that people very close to me completely in their right minds have had encounters with something that certainly resembles what we term a ghost, and the fact that this is not rare isolated incidences at all, can you really completely dismiss them?

Same with demons.

[Gwendylyn]

Well, if we take "supernatural" to mean "anything to falls outside of the natural laws", then no. I really have no reason to believe that anything exists that does not follow natural laws. So many things we believed to be supernatural have proven to follow the laws of nature and scientific explanations.

I had a friend was was convinced she had been attacked by a ghost multiple times. Frozen in bed, barely able to breathe, pressure on her chest like someone was trying to kill her, dark shadowy figure.

Exact description of dream paralysis.

[Dunecat]

I had a friend was was convinced she had been attacked by a ghost multiple times. Frozen in bed, barely able to breathe, pressure on her chest like someone was trying to kill her, dark shadowy figure.

Exact description of dream paralysis.

Same thing happened to me when I was in middle school. I can't remember how old I was, but I do remember that exact moment it happened, as I had never exprienced anything like that before (or have since).

It was slightly different, of course. I was lying on the couch, and instead of a dark, shadowy figure there was deep laughter (movie-esque) coming from where I couldn't see (where in my house, if you cared, would be by the pantry. lol). Like her, I was frozen and felt the pressure though.

It wasn't till I was in high school till I found out what it was.

Fascinating stuff, the brain is. :hmmm:

Anyway, do I believe "immaterial" entities exist, in addition to things that can neither be defined as material nor immaterial? Yes. Do I we can observe those things in ... the observable world? No.

So yes, while I define certain modes of consciousness as an immaterial soul, and believe in a creator god and similar immaterial beings, I do not believe that the effect of the "soul" can be measured, and likewise for all other non-material essences, as it would defy the very definition of existence to believe so.

So while some might ridicule me for honoring the accounts of thousands-year old stories, I am quite comfortable in my beliefs. Those that wish to humiliate me are mistaken in the assumption I have no rational or logical foundation for my evolving worldview and am ashamed of it.

Perhaps I am an exception to the religious community, but I'd like to think otherwise.

One day I'm going to embark on a crusade to figure out what part of this extensive mythos is actually in the bible, and what part is just stolen from the Divine Comedy and Lost Paradise.

I think you won't be surprised.

If we were to debate eschatology under the shared assumption of Christian validity, I would say that it is perfectly reasonable to accept the existence of "celestial beings" if the passages mentioned were more literal than not, and were to reside in the "celestial" realm. If Christianity were a given, this would not be an unreasonable view.

It would be an unreasonable view though to believe in the existence of a perfectly evil being (which in and of itself is a definitive contradiction, as there can categorically be a perfectly benevolent being but not a perfectly malicious one), in addition to influential malevolent spirits and kind spirits, if those things were invented in the twisted mind of some poet, author, or playwright.

Which they are.

So in the very least, from a non-religious perspective, founding a metaphysical belief on fiction is more silly than similarly doing so on religious scriptures.

[The Good]

Just out of curiosity, where do you think these demons come from and what purpose do you think they serve?

When the angel Lucifer (Satan) rebelled against God, he had other angels to support him. Thus, all of the ones who joined Lucifer's cause became fallen angels, also known as demons.

[Ummagumma]

When the angel Lucifer (Satan) rebelled against God, he had other angels to support him.

Rebel against something omnipotent? That would be impossible.
They didn't rebel, just fulfilled another (albeit twisted) part of the big man's plan, surely.

[Gwendylyn]

When the angel Lucifer (Satan) rebelled against God, he had other angels to support him. Thus, all of the ones who joined Lucifer's cause became fallen angels, also known as demons.

One day I'm going to embark on a crusade to figure out what part of this extensive mythos is actually in the bible, and what part is just stolen from the Divine Comedy and Lost Paradise.

[Maverick]

Same thing happened to me when I was in middle school. I can't remember how old I was, but I do remember that exact moment it happened, as I had never exprienced anything like that before (or have since).

It was slightly different, of course. I was lying on the couch, and instead of a dark, shadowy figure there was deep laughter (movie-esque) coming from where I couldn't see (where in my house, if you cared, would be by the pantry. lol). Like her, I was frozen and felt the pressure though.

It wasn't till I was in high school till I found out what it was.

Fascinating stuff, the brain is. :hmmm:

I experienced sleep paralysis once, no hallucinations .

One day I'm going to embark on a crusade to figure out what part of this extensive mythos is actually in the bible, and what part is just stolen from the Divine Comedy and Lost Paradise.

Don't bother, the angels are much older than the Divine Comedy or Paradise Lost, any eastern religious name with "el" is ancient and likely predates Judaism, i.e. Gabriel, Michael and Elohim, El being the much older Sumero-Babylonian high God.

Shimon ben Lakish, a Jewish scholar in the 3rd century wrote: "Israel took the names of the angels from the Babylonians during the period of the Exile, because Isaiah (before exodus) speaks only of 'one of the seraphim', without calling him by name; whereas Daniel (after exodus) names the angels Michael and Gabriel". Later Christians invented more angels in the new testament hundreds of years before the Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost, the angels in the old testament predate Dante and Milton by several thousand years.

[Dunecat]

I experienced sleep paralysis once, no hallucinations .



Don't bother, the angels are much older than the Divine Comedy or Paradise Lost, any eastern religious name with "el" is ancient and likely predates Judaism, i.e. Gabriel, Michael and Elohim, El being the much older Sumero-Babylonian high God.

Shimon ben Lakish, a Jewish scholar in the 3rd century wrote: "Israel took the names of the angels from the Babylonians during the period of the Exile, because Isaiah (before exodus) speaks only of 'one of the seraphim', without calling him by name; whereas Daniel (after exodus) names the angels Michael and Gabriel". Later Christians invented more angels in the new testament hundreds of years before the Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost, the angels in the old testament predate Dante and Milton by several thousand years.

While I would agree the idea of celestial beings (Angels, fallen angels, cherubim, seraphim) are old, I think their application as part of a dualistic battle between two powerful "gods" is truly [relatively] new, at least in the time line of Christianity. As far as I know, the apostles didn't have access to Paradise Lost...

While I think an argument can be made that ancient Jews did not believe theirs was the only "god", I do not think that any theories have been presented that postulate God strictly as the good God, stuck an a timeless battle against the evil God (perhaps baal or what not). That sort of thinking is relatively new, and I do believe stems from the, again relatively, new re-charicterization of the devil as a very very very very strong and very very very very bad angel that God wars against, each with their own army.

I think it is somewhat safe to assume "Satan" a fallen angel if he is indeed a singular figure, but to paint him as a pissed off celestial being who likes playing warhammer with God, I think, is a bit of a far-fetched idea.

[Osceola]

Thats a valid point, what if "ghosts" aren't supernatural at all, merely because we haven't completely discovered what these things are, advance science forth in the next 200 years, and whats to say we won't discover that they are a completely different form of "life" following a set of natural laws?

[The Good]

Rebel against something omnipotent? That would be impossible.
They didn't rebel, just fulfilled another (albeit twisted) part of the big man's plan, surely.

This may be getting off topic, but actually, the reason why we have free will, is because God would not be satisfied by having us be "programmed" as robots are. He wants a personal, and meaningful relationship with his us. Now think for a moment, if you were God, would you take satisfaction in creating robot-esque beings to bow down to you non-stop without emotion? He wants to see who is willing to worship Him. That is much more meaningful to God; someone going out of their own time praising Him, and following His teachings. I'm not going to delve too much further into this, but that is why we have free will, basically.

As for Satan, how he came to become evil is explained in Genesis or Job I believe. If I can find the certain passages, I'll show them to you.

[Pyrebound]

I dont believe in ghosts, leprechauns, demons, orcs or anything that is taken from a storybook until one comes to my house and tells me that he exists.

[Kscott]

In Job Satan is right up there with God making bets. And the war in heaven certainly is not in Genesis, unless you attribute the snake to him. the actual references of Satan in the bible are all short, most of what we 'know' of him merely comes from fiction like Paradise Lost and the Divine Comedy as Gwendylyn pointed out. Other aspects are just completely modern.

[Ummagumma]

Off topic or not, I must.. (Maybe a split will be called for soon..)

He wants to see who is willing to worship Him. That is much more meaningful to God

Is that not just anthropomorphism? Would it ever be possible for you, me or the next person to even suggest the 'Will of God'?
If you take the story of the fall at face value, an event occurred which displeased God, ending in the expulsion from Eden. If the event displeased him then how can you really suggest that it was part of his 'Divine plan' for what you assume He wants? He set up paradise for His favourite new pets, and threw them out for disobeying Him. Everything else is a poorly bolted-on rationalisation; an attempt to humanise and believe that this is all still some part of a great plan, that we are all still 'special'. I've never been one for fables though, they are too easily twisted.

[The Good]

I cannot speak for God himself, but thats all from my understanding of the scriptures.

[Irishman]

Since there is no credible evidence for any of these, I do not believe in them.

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

Something can't really be above nature, but only above our understanding of it. So I don't believe in the supernatural in that sense.

[The Good]

Something can't really be above nature, but only above our understanding of it. So I don't believe in the supernatural in that sense.

Quite profound, that.