tactics for fighting Carthage

[metalguy24]

Hey I was just wondering some good tactics to use in fighting the phalanx formation of the Carthage army with early republic legions? My hastati always get murdered trying to distract them while my other units get on their flank. Just wondering if there is a better way? Thanks.

[Nordmann]

I personally don't use the Hastati for head on contact with the enemy, try using Principes to hold their attention to the front, then flank with either Hastati or Principes and hit them from the side. Keep your frontal units defensive, but allow your flanking units to surround the enemy, once their attention is split bring your frontal units off defence and have them charge; the Phalanx will start to break up quite quickly, allowing you to encircle and destroy them.

[century x]

Well usually the best way is what you said. FLANK THE CRAP OUT OF THEM. Your going to have to put your hastati in front and lure them in. Then flank them. Once you did remove your hastati from the front to save them and put them where needed. Always works for me.

I can get really in depth on the proper way to defeat phalanx army but that is the basic. Other way is to have a solid wall of troops and lure them in and surround them.

[metalguy24]

thanks for the advice. Im trying to cut back on the casualties in my campaigning armies. Carthage so far has been inflicting the most casualties on me. I have three armies right now fighting together to take Sicily. But Carthage is the first major power I've fought in this campaign so far.

[Astaroth]

Basically what century x said.

Tbh it's pretty basic, a simply formation always works for me:

Use Triarii (I try to use velites, triarii, hastati and principes to make it realistic, but dont use the common tactics with them ) as "main" unit to form a battleline (roughly 5-6 units of them), then use groups of 4-5 units of ~3-2 principes-hastati as your guards at the flanks.
If your army is big enough, put one of these "wings" on each of the sides of the triarii. (so its princ/hast on the left, triarii ion the middle, p/h on the right)

Then I put the velites in front of the triarii and a general (cav) plus ~2 units of equites or barb cav on one of my two wings.

While my main battleline advances forward, my two wings advance as well so they stanhd at the flanks of the opponents army. Then my velites from the front will start skirmishing, along with my "fire at will- mode" guys from the left and the right. The triarii approach, his units will attack me. (or even earlier)

Now the triarii will slowly fall back, his phalanx following me, now both wings charge in, always try to run around the slow phalanx units to attack them from behind.

Eventually the general+his cav who rode around the opponent's army will charge in to massacre possible ranged units or to rout others.

If my opponent has superior cav forces I try to keep 1-2 units of triarii close to my cav so I can lure his cav with mine into the spears^^

But yes, to sum it up: flank them like no tomorrow

[frankus]

You fought against macedon jet?? they are all phalanx

[Kubelwagen]

The name of the game is baiting. Hastati and velites are cheap and ugly, use them for your grunt work. Send your velites out in front of your fighting force and skirmish with the enemy Scutarii and Thureophoroi and light inf so they use a lot of their javelins. Then the Carthaginian cav will charge and your hastati can absorb the attack and throw pila as they charge.

Usually if you do it right, Carthage will be down to mostly all phalanx units by the time the bulk of your army actually attacks. The remaining velites are great for keeping a phalanx busy in front, as well as hastati. Remember, velites are the most easily replaced, so do whatever you want with them. They are a very powerful force on the battlefield if used correctly.

Don't use your triarii unless absolutely necessary. Flank with principes. Hope this helps.

PS: My republican armies are 1 cavalry general, 1 inf general, 4 velites, 5 hastati, 5 principe, 2 triarii, 2 equites.

[metalguy24]

The name of the game is baiting. Hastati and velites are cheap and ugly, use them for your grunt work. Send your velites out in front of your fighting force and skirmish with the enemy Scutarii and Thureophoroi and light inf so they use a lot of their javelins. Then the Carthaginian cav will charge and your hastati can absorb the attack and throw pila as they charge.

Usually if you do it right, Carthage will be down to mostly all phalanx units by the time the bulk of your army actually attacks. The remaining velites are great for keeping a phalanx busy in front, as well as hastati. Remember, velites are the most easily replaced, so do whatever you want with them. They are a very powerful force on the battlefield if used correctly.

Don't use your triarii unless absolutely necessary. Flank with principes. Hope this helps.

PS: My republican armies are 1 cavalry general, 1 inf general, 4 velites, 5 hastati, 5 principe, 2 triarii, 2 equites.

That is the make up of my armies as well. I haven't fought Macedon yet, still fairly early in my campaign. I tend to expand slowly and concentrate my forces on one foe instead of fighting on multiple fronts. I think I'm in the year 495 AUC.

[Gotthard]

Every damn unit in that army throws something at you, Scutari and Caetari 'light' infantry will make your hastatii cry, and your cavalry crap their pants. Their cavalry will wipe the floor with yours, as well as your triarii if you're unlucky. Their phalax can compete with macedon as well.

I despise the Carthaginians. I beat them by dumping every last unit I can on their cities, burning them to the ground, killing all their people, and repreating this until every last city is destroyed. Mass numbers win the day here, finesse can help, but check what the computer is building a lot of first. If he has a lot of pilum throwing infantry, go mostly triarii (to counter cavalry, and they have better armor to resist the arrows) If they have mostly phalanx, go all hastatii (no, not principe, hastatii. Yu want all the pilum you can get your hands on, and they autobattle exceedingly well versus phalanx units...), with a few units of cavalry to charge from behind.

[Spartan 666]

with the early legions i use always the "ram tactic":frontal assault to the last maniple!!! it s a shame for a strategist,but knowing that the romans in that period were all but strategist..........i feel to be like them!

[EternalSlayer]

Roll them up from the flank. Try to keep a broader line, with strong troops in the centre that will hold out for a while. Roman Cavalry SUCKS until you get Medium Cavalry, so try to conserve your equites and use them to round up any peltasts or routing units when you're sure there's no other cavalry around.

The absolutely vital thing is to get around the enemy. Once you've got a phalanx pinned down from two sides their morale often goes down, so you might want to consider charging them with cavalry then.

[|Sith|Duke_Spartacus]

i do absolutly nothing with history. I also try to make the strongest army possible, but i keep it in check by limiting the number of legions im allowed to have. The only historical thing i do is that evey army is commanded by a general and i try to get the roman empire how it truly was.

my set up is

p---p---p---p---p---p---p---p---p---p
T---T---T---T---T---T---T---T
C G C
P=Principe
t=triarii
c=cavalry
g=general

I know it has nothing to to with history and many of you are laughing at me now but i like building a strong army, not an army that gets chopped 50% because you had to make it ''fair''

What i do with the triarii, is when they engage my main line, i let 2 triarii on both flanks run around their flank and attack em in the back, if cav comes i will move more of my triarii to help them. This way i ALWAYS destroy the enemy flank fairly easy, btw this works also very well vs Carthage.

Flame me for this tactic but i like it.

[Kubelwagen]

To each their own.

[Lost In Transition]

I recently finished a campaign against Carthage and I found them to be a tough fight. This is what usually worked for me.

First, an image of one of my Roman armies advancing against a stack of Carthaginians:

My legion consists of:

2 Generals
5 Hastati
5 Principes
4 Velites
2 Equites
2 Triarii

The first row of my deployment are all five units of Hastati, set to fire at will. They supported at intervals by four units of Principes. One unit of Principes are held in reserve, usually in the center. The two units on my far flanks are Triarii. They are supported by Equites. How far back I place the Equites depends on the enemy strength in spearmen. Behind the principes is a line of four units of Velites. These are also set to fire at well.

Two basic principles:

(1) Extend you line as far as you can. If you’re playing a campaign, the AI will usually (not always, but usually) gather their units into a single group at your center (as the Carthaginians have done here). Your goal is wrap your ends around the enemy line to attack their flanks.

(2) You want to reduce your enemies kill factor as soon as possible. Since I am fighting the Carthaginians, they can kill me with their phalanxes, they can kill me with their javelins (light infantry), and they can kill me with their missile troops. I need to effectively respond to each of these attacks.

Here’s how the formation works:

First, I advance my formation to within missile range of the Carthaginians. My Hastati and Velites open fire on the Carthaginian lines. If there is a particular tough unit, I may open fire with my Principes, but I usually save their missiles as a reserve. This fire will usually cause the Carthaginians to attack. If not, my Hastati will attack the front of the Carthaginian line at spaced intervals.

Once the Carthaginian units commit to fighting my Hastati, I then engage my Principes. Because the Hastati are fighting at intervals, the Carthaginians usually have wrapped around my Hastati units. Sometimes they achieve this by using two or more units on my Hastati. Yes, I’ll be losing some Hastati. I now commit my Principes by attacking these units on their flanks or sides, or simply reinforce the thinning Hastati.

On my flanks, any unit that is not engaged, which is usually the Triarii and one of the Hastati units, will now advance in a forward curve to circle around and strike the end units on the Carthaginian flank. This is known as the hammer and anvil tactic: the anvil are the Hastati and Principes that fighting from the front; the hammer are the units that are circling the flanks to strike from the rear.

By now Carthage commits all its phalanx and light infantry units to the fight. I now bring out my equites and sweep around the sides to rout the missile troops in the rear. This eliminates their kill power. If I haven’t already, I will engage any units of Carthaginian cavalry. If I have a general unit with any amount of cavalry bodyguard (even if it’s just a dozen or so), I’ll use them to run down light missile troops and routing units.

By now, the Carthaginian flanks are broken and are routing. Rather than give chase, I simply fold my Triarii, Hastati, and Principes into the center of the line, building both the effect of the rout and power of my rear and flank attack. Usually within a few minutes the entire Carthaginian line has routed.

I hope this was useful.

[snuggans]

anytime you're going to have an infantry fight a phalanx unit, tell them to charge. with their momentum they get a couple of men behind the spears. i remember it pissed me off when i was using phalanx.

[metalguy24]

I recently finished a campaign against Carthage and I found them to be a tough fight. This is what usually worked for me.

First, an image of one of my Roman armies advancing against a stack of Carthaginians:

My legion consists of:

2 Generals
5 Hastati
5 Principes
4 Velites
2 Equites
2 Triarii

The first row of my deployment are all five units of Hastati, set to fire at will. They supported at intervals by four units of Principes. One unit of Principes are held in reserve, usually in the center. The two units on my far flanks are Triarii. They are supported by Equites. How far back I place the Equites depends on the enemy strength in spearmen. Behind the principes is a line of four units of Velites. These are also set to fire at well.

Two basic principles:

(1) Extend you line as far as you can. If you’re playing a campaign, the AI will usually (not always, but usually) gather their units into a single group at your center (as the Carthaginians have done here). Your goal is wrap your ends around the enemy line to attack their flanks.

(2) You want to reduce your enemies kill factor as soon as possible. Since I am fighting the Carthaginians, they can kill me with their phalanxes, they can kill me with their javelins (light infantry), and they can kill me with their missile troops. I need to effectively respond to each of these attacks.

Here’s how the formation works:

First, I advance my formation to within missile range of the Carthaginians. My Hastati and Velites open fire on the Carthaginian lines. If there is a particular tough unit, I may open fire with my Principes, but I usually save their missiles as a reserve. This fire will usually cause the Carthaginians to attack. If not, my Hastati will attack the front of the Carthaginian line at spaced intervals.

Once the Carthaginian units commit to fighting my Hastati, I then engage my Principes. Because the Hastati are fighting at intervals, the Carthaginians usually have wrapped around my Hastati units. Sometimes they achieve this by using two or more units on my Hastati. Yes, I’ll be losing some Hastati. I now commit my Principes by attacking these units on their flanks or sides, or simply reinforce the thinning Hastati.

On my flanks, any unit that is not engaged, which is usually the Triarii and one of the Hastati units, will now advance in a forward curve to circle around and strike the end units on the Carthaginian flank. This is known as the hammer and anvil tactic: the anvil are the Hastati and Principes that fighting from the front; the hammer are the units that are circling the flanks to strike from the rear.

By now Carthage commits all its phalanx and light infantry units to the fight. I now bring out my equites and sweep around the sides to rout the missile troops in the rear. This eliminates their kill power. If I haven’t already, I will engage any units of Carthaginian cavalry. If I have a general unit with any amount of cavalry bodyguard (even if it’s just a dozen or so), I’ll use them to run down light missile troops and routing units.

By now, the Carthaginian flanks are broken and are routing. Rather than give chase, I simply fold my Triarii, Hastati, and Principes into the center of the line, building both the effect of the rout and power of my rear and flank attack. Usually within a few minutes the entire Carthaginian line has routed.

I hope this was useful.

That sounds interesting I'll give that a try. I have a massive battle coming up when I get home from work. Trying to take Syracuse and the Carhaginians have two stacks guarding it. So I have a fight on my hands. Trying to prepare a strategy for this battle that is looming. Thanks everyone for the advice. Carthage has just been a pain, my Sicily campaign has already drug out longer than I wanted it to!

[icydawgfish]

To beat a phalanx, simply hold them down with weak expendable infantry and flank with any unit (preferably calvary). But if the unit you are using to engage the fron of the phalanx is strong, try to push through the center of the unit. It breaks up the phalanx formation and weakens the unit.

[Astaroth]

I'd strongly advise against flanking phalangites with cavalry lol...

I've tried that several times already (just to make sure ) and even when all their spears were to the front and I charged into their back, I lost like 4-5 men in the first charge already and those were GENERALS BODYGUARDS, not some weak units. I already lost 2 generals like that, including my faction leader...

Way better to use swordsmen for that purpose, the stronger the better.

[snuggans]

I'd strongly advise against flanking phalangites with cavalry lol...

I've tried that several times already (just to make sure ) and even when all their spears were to the front and I charged into their back, I lost like 4-5 men in the first charge already and those were GENERALS BODYGUARDS, not some weak units. I already lost 2 generals like that, including my faction leader...

Way better to use swordsmen for that purpose, the stronger the better.

yeah in this mod, cavalry aren't so effective even against the backs or flanks of phalanx. the phalanx hold really well. instead you get casualties on the cavalry's side when charging. irony.

[rory o'kane]

better yet, velites. get a good couple of volleys of javelins in their backs - that tends to rip right through even pretty heavy phalangites.