PRO DEO ET REGE Faction Research Thread: Basileia tōn Rōmaiōn

[Socal_infidel]

Basileia tōn Rōmaiōn: Research Thread

Since I have problems organizing things, opening a thread devoted to consolidating research on the Byzantines. As you may or may not know, they're likely to get a make-over in PDER 2.0 since my own PDER 1.0 Roman campaign was cut short by my dissatisfaction with their roster.

If you have anything to add, by all means please do so...

This is a rough draft of their roster:

BARRACKS (infantry and archers)

AOR Barracks - various units depending on region
Tier 1 - Peltastai (unarmoured javelinmen); Toxotai (unarmored archers)
Tier 2 - Kontaratoi Spearmen (unarmored spearmen)
Tier 3 - Skoutatoi Spearmen (armored spearmen); Skoutatoi Swordsmen (armored swordsmen)
Tier 4 - Mourtartoi Heavy Archers (armored archer/swordsmen); Menavlatoi Heavy Spearmen(?) (armored pikemen/heavy spearmen)
Tier 5 - Spatharioi Swordsmen (heavily armored swordsmen); Varangian Guard

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

STABLES

AOR Stables - various units depending on region (mainly horsearchers, e.g. Magyar Cavalry, Turcomans, Turcopoles, Cumans, Pechenegs, Kypchaks)
Tier 1 - Trapezitai Javelin Cavalry (unarmored javelin cavalry)
Tier 2 - Akritai Light Cavalry (light armored light cavalry)
Tier 3 - Kavallarioi Toxotai (armored horse archer)
Tier 4 - Pronoiarioi Lancers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Upgrade

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Tier 5 - Scholarioi Heavy Lancers

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[AnthoniusII]

Add this under the latins

Βασιλεια των Ρωμαιων

It is in greek!

[AnthoniusII]

I insist the existance of kavalarioi Loricatoi(we can not have only the half unit available)!
Add Gasmouloi crossbowmen(like the mercs)in the ports!

[Socal_infidel]

Don't mind me, in the sake of having everything in one place for reference, I'm adding reference materials here for various units.

References for Pronoiarioi Lancers

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References for Scholarioi Heavy Lancers

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[Socal_infidel]

I insist the existance of kavalarioi Loricatoi(we can not have only the half unit available)!
Add Gasmouloi crossbowmen(like the mercs)in the ports!

Were I to do this, I would insist on making them available at 4th tier after their horse archer counterpart. I really don't want them to have any access to any sort of medium/heavy cavalry until the next to last tier. Until then Western mercs.

And the only reason I'm considering it is because I'm thinking of making the Pronoiarioilancers only available after a certain date, and the roster would need a unit available at that level until that date.

But yeah, no native medium/heavy cavalry until the next to last stable.

[AnthoniusII]

What about Gasmouloi?

[Socal_infidel]

What about Gasmouloi?

There's plenty of merc crossbowmen available. Don't see the need to give the Romans a native x-bow unit.

One of the few good things about modding primarily by yourself is that you get to make the final decisions on everything...

I'm gonna stick fairly close to the roster I posted. I might change one or two things around, but that's basically it. You have to remember this whole thing developed because I essentially was dissatisfied with my own Roman campaign on PDER 1.0. I wasn't intending to redo the whole roster, just a few things.

[Ahiga]

To what you said in the previous topic:

And even if history is fudged a little, I'm not sure of the purpose for such a unit against the Rum Turks. Apparently, they either used a pike, polearm or really heavy spear (or javelin as you guys have them) and were employed as an anti-eastern kataphract/super heavy cav unit. Their enemy at this time however are lightly armoured horse archers. What good would they be against that?

Well, some important notes on the Turks:

Whereas Fatimid cavalry largely fought with spear and sword, the first wave of Seljuk Turkish invaders relied on Central Asian horse-archery tactics of dispersal and harassment. Within two generations the Seljuk professional cavalry, though not the Turkoman tribal warriors, had largely reverted to a long-established Middle Eastern tradition of horse arhcery, in which men shot volleys as close packed units, often at rest. This system needed fewer spare horses and permitted the use of heavier armour. By the 12th and 13th century it seems that even in strongly Turkish areas like Azerbaijan and Anatolia the professional cavalry elite relied as much on spears, swords, maces, and javelins as on archery

Osprey book Saracen Faris.

Muslim troops facing the Byzantines along their mountainous frontier of Eastern Anatolia and Armenia had much in common with their foes, with both making great use of mail and lamellar armor.

Armies of Islam 7th to 11th century, Azerbaijanyi Infantryman 10th century.

The Akritiai guys you've mentioned were probably the ones designated to do the bulk of the fighting with Tribal Turcomans. In the case of facing the professional forces of the Rum turks, I could see such anti eastern kataphract/heavy cavalry infantry being of use. I personally think their Infantry roster is quite good already, however, such a unit may well be overkill especially when they already have a high class Hybrid. From a gameplay perspective, it'd be better for Armenia or Georgia to get a hybrid javelineer.

Also, I hope you do the Fatimids in the future.

[AnthoniusII]

@Socal_infidel

I support this kind of thinking!Proniars developted in the late 13th century!
A nice release(event)date for pronoiars would be 1290-1300!

[Lord_Phan]

I'd like to see at least 1 gunpowder unit for the factions such as East Rome that don't have any. After all, them not having any is due to the circumstances that occured in real history(gradual collapse of the empire, policies of various emperors etc.) Maybe if certain events happen they could get access to a non-historical gunpowder unit based on how they might have created it had they not stagnated.

Just a suggestion.

[JayCee]

I'd like to see at least 1 gunpowder unit for the factions such as East Rome that don't have any. After all, them not having any is due to the circumstances that occured in real history(gradual collapse of the empire, policies of various emperors etc.) Maybe if certain events happen they could get access to a non-historical gunpowder unit based on how they might have created it had they not stagnated.

Just a suggestion.

I agree with this. IMO, it's horribly unrealistic to think that, had the Byzantines (or the other "weak later units" factions) still been a major force in the late medieval period, they wouldn't have adopted gunpoweder troops to a much greater extent. I wouldn't suggest they get any unique ones like the Jannissaries, but they should get access to the generic ones, as well as the later artillery.

[AnthoniusII]

Handunners could add in the empire's roster through the Hetairiae merc system like the latinicon is!
In reality almost all the handgunners is service were italian mercs!

[B. Ward]

need help socal let me know, i may be able to spare some time to remodel a unit or two for you

[Tadzreuli]

My word! What a fascinating little site! Cheerio!

thanks you, great site !

[Tadzreuli]

here is the another good site :

http://www.museumreplicas.com/museum...CategoryID=121

[Emperor Basil]

Ok then. Here's some more for anyone who's interested.


The 4th Crusade


Meeting between Alexius V (on the horse) and the Doge Errico Dandolo in 1204.




Constantine XI - 1453


Constantinople


Constantinople again


Hagia Sophia


The Hippodrome


Random Horseman

[Socal_infidel]

Reference images for Varangians:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Socal_infidel]

Allah willing, I hope to be able to post some pics of the Pronoiarioi, Scholarioi and Varangians sometime soon...spent the better part of the past two weeks on them.

[B. Ward]

very nice my friend

[Ahiga]

Wow, very awesome Varangians.