How do Polybian troops compare to Camillian ones?

[QuintusSertorius]

I ask because I've just upgraded the MIC in my five main recruiting centres (Roma, Capua, Arpi, Arminium, Arretium), and eventually I'll replace my current legions. I say eventually, I have three of them and I figure I'll just run them down and not send them any reinforcements for merging any more.

I'm at 225BC in my game, playing historically, so perhaps once I've taken Patavium and Mediolanium it'll be an opportune time. I'm presuming nothing will cause a scripted Hannibalic invasion. Might deliberately lose some battles through incompetence.

Are Polybian troops much better?

Of late it seems my Hastati really get ground up by enemy troops. I always use them to take the brunt of the harm, but they seem to be faring worse as their opponents get better. My policy of merging replacements in, rather than retraining probably doesn't help, but I'm not about to change that.

Perhaps I should just go look at the EDU?

EDIT: Just did, slightly better armour and morale (and "disciplined" rather than "normal" whatever that means), but not as good in deserts, no doubt because of the former.

Principes are mixed; better armour and morale, but worse attack with swords and no spears.

Alright so I've seen the stats, what about actual experiences? How have people found them in battle compared to their old Camillian armies?

And what's the deal with Gaesatae? I know they're elites, but even more than hypaspistai they're almost impossible to beat. They won't rout until the battle is actually lost, and no one seems to be able to put a dent in them.

[Korlon]

I think I read somewhere that spear units have an automatic -4 attack against other infantry, which is why spear units generally have more attack than sword units.

[johnhughthom]

I find those extra ferw points the Polybians get makes a big difference, I especially prefer my Principes to have swords.
With Gaesatae the only tactic I know is to hit them with as many missiles as possible from behind, for a while it may look like nothing is happening but at least you are getting rid of the first hitpoint of a lot of them. Personally I haven't had too much trouble with them, even with my Camillan troops, they are tough but nowhere near as bad as some make out.

[QuintusSertorius]

I think I read somewhere that spear units have an automatic -4 attack against other infantry, which is why spear units generally have more attack than sword units.

Ah, that makes sense. So they're actually slightly more effective then. Though they won't be so good at holding enemy generals in place, that will fall solely to the triarii now.

I find those extra ferw points the Polybians get makes a big difference, I especially prefer my Principes to have swords.
With Gaesatae the only tactic I know is to hit them with as many missiles as possible from behind, for a while it may look like nothing is happening but at least you are getting rid of the first hitpoint of a lot of them. Personally I haven't had too much trouble with them, even with my Camillan troops, they are tough but nowhere near as bad as some make out.

I lost my first attempt to take Bononia as a result of two half-strength units of Gaesatae who just wouldn't die, and wore out everything I threw at them as they held the breach.

They're disproportionately difficult to deal with, even when I've got them massively outnumbered and surrounded, they just won't die! But I can't really complain, they're elites and my troops are just citizen-soldiers.



With the Polybian reforms I lose all my recruit-able Samnites, don't I?

[QuintusSertorius]

The improved morale and armour really do make a big difference, I've now found. Polybian troops have serious battle endurance compared to Camillian ones. I'm now finding that even in battles where it's evens for losses, my troops seem to stay in the fight just that little bit longer which turns a draw into a tough victory.

I recently had a battle with Carthage that I thought I was going to lose when I realised I left my flank-covering troops in Italy (I was in Spain). Turns out they performed better than I'd expected.

[beatoangelico]

polybian hastati and principes also get the gladius hispaniensis that replace the early italic shortsword of camillan hastati (represented in-game with an increse in lethality, from 0.1 to 0.13 - i't slighty less than 3 point of attack)