Questions regarding MOD

[bucellarii]

I agree this formation shouldn't really be a priority. As I have previously posted in the FRRE forum:

It seems the Romans were familar with the testudo formation as an exercise in the Circus games, first adapting the formation in war during the assault on Heracleum in 168 BCE:

Some young Romans turned their training in the Circus games to purposes of war and in this way seized the lowest portion of the wall....After going through various evolutions, they formed a solid square with their shields held over their heads, touching one another; those in the front rank standing erect; those in the second slightly stooping; those in the third and fourth bending lower and lower; whilst those in the rear rank rested on their knees. In this way they formed a testudo, which sloped like the roof of a house

Livy 44.9.1-10

Heracleum was taken in a peculiar manner. The town had a low wall of no great extent on one side, and to attack this the Romans employed three picked maniples. The men of the first held their shields over their heads, and closed up, so that, owing to the density of the bucklers, it became like a tiled roof. The other two in succession . .

Polybios 28.12

Contemporary references to the testudo during the period are rare:

The Gauls' mode of besieging is the same as that of the Belgae: when after having drawn a large number of men around the whole of the fortifications, stones have begun to be cast against the wall on all sides, and the wall has been stripped of its defenders, [then], forming a testudo, they advance to the gates and undermine the wall: which was easily effected on this occasion

B.G 2.6

Here Caesar is describing the use of the testudo by the Galli and the Belgae rather than by his own legions.

One day, when they fell into an ambush and were being struck by dense showers of arrows, they suddenly formed the testudo by joining their shields, and rested their left knees on the ground

Cassius Dio 49.30

M. Antonius' troops adopt the formation during the campaign against Parthia in 36 BCE

As we all know the primary use of the testudo formation was during siege warfare and less commonly as a static anti-horse archer defense. However the testudo does not appear to have been in common use during the period of the Roman Republic. Testudo siege machines were more often deployed during city assaults whilst on the Roman battlefield perhaps only encounters with Parthia might have led to use of the testudo formation.

[SigniferOne]

Overall I'm highly skeptical that Gauls formed testudo as any kind of regular formation, in the same way that it's practically impossible they formed a phalanx. Historians record they formed a 'phalanx' which is just a Greek word for 'battle line' without any discipline connotations that we now attach to it. For example, Cassius Dio's description is extremely circumspect: if you're attacked by arrows, wouldn't you raise your shield to the sky, and maybe even buttress it by resting your left foot on the ground? These sorts of vague descriptions don't help us with knowing whether Gauls had regular drills, officer corps, and regular wheeling and marching formations. In fact all evidence points to the fact that they didn't...

As for Romans, I agree, there is little evidence of them using it earlier in the Republic.

[SonOfCrusader76]

OK, no problem, I didn't know that.

[bucellarii]

I agree the use of military terminology found in ancient source material can often be imprecise and your example about the term 'phalanx' is a good one. Any tightly packed battle formation might be described in this way. However I would point out that the word 'testudo' is far less commonly found in the same source material and accordingly it would appear to have a less generic application. Additionally whilst you are right to be cautious about Dio his account of Antonius' Parthian campaign receives some support from Plutarch

Then the shield-bearers wheeled round and enclosed the light-armed troops within their ranks, dropped down to one knee, and held their shields out as a defensive barrier. The men behind them held their shields over the heads of the first rank, while the third rank did the same for the second rank. The resulting shape, which is a remarkable sight, looks very like a roof, and is the surest protection against arrows, which just glance off it

Plutarch: Antonius 45

I too reserve judgement about a Gallic and Belgic testudo type formation. However since the reporter on this occasion is Caesar, it would be unwise to simply disregard the evidence he outlines.

[Aneximanes]

Interesting.

Could it be that he copied that formation? And thus the romans arn't the ones who 'invented' the testudo.

[ElSypatiko]

I am pretty shure the romans "copied" a lot from other armies.
Why not ? They were almost everywhre fighting.
gtx

[bucellarii]

As indicated above the first evidence we have about the Romans deploying the testudo formation comes from Polybios (28.12) and Livy (44.9.1-10) with regard to the assault on Heracleum in 168 BCE. If credence is given to the latter account then the Romans adopted this formation from an exercise in the Circus games. Quite when the testudo was first introduced to the Circus is unkown.

SigniferOne is correct to be cautious about reports the Galli and the Belgae also used a testudo type formation. However Caesar of course would have been intimately familiar with the battle tactics of these two nations and therefore his evidence carries more weight than most. His account of the siege of Bibrax in 57 specifically mentions the testudo being used by the Belgae.

It is important to remember though that whilst Caesar's Commentarii are an indispensable part of the classical literary cannon they were deliberately designed to show the author in the best possible light. Clearly it would be in Caesar's interests to depict his enemies' military prowess in a positive manner.

Carolyn Hammond has written in an excellent introduction to the Oxford translation of De Bello Gallico :

In the end, a dichotomy between 'factual' and 'propagandist' interpretations is unlikely to do justice to the complexities of the text. For one thing, manipulation of a narrative to show onself in the best possible light may appear to a modern reader to be deceptive and fraudulent, while an ancient counterpart might regard both as natural and appropriate. For another, the simplicity of Caesar's narrative...may be meant to indicate association with 'popular' causes: it cannot be dismissed as just a device to beguile and deceive the reader into accepting the narrative at face value

In conclusion I simply don't know the answer to your question Aneximanes. However perhaps these observations might provide you with some useful background?

Cheers!

[SigniferOne]

Caesar might have wanted to portray his enemies in the best light, but he ignores the conditions that make disciplined formations possible: namely, a settled life, military trainers, and a rational, explicit, ordering of war. Neither Gauls nor Germans had any of these.

But I do want to make a further point about 'testudo' itself: it can mean something as simple as resembling a tortoise. Or, why couldn't have the Gallic soldiers spontaneously shielded themselves in a way that resembled the testudo? That's very different from consciously and explicitly enacting a practiced manoeuver, but heck, any group of men, whatever the training, can spontaneously fall to the knee at a similar point to protect themselves from missiles.

No, evidence for formations cannot come from singular mentions such as these; it needs to be repeated and corroborated with graphical evidence where possible. Also all of the societal tribal features of Gallic life need to be explained away.

[Ballacraine]

Yes, there is a difference between a resemblance to a trained manouvre & a drilled operation.

[Aneximanes]

Yes, no doubd the romans where the first who used it as a formation.

But that does not mean the gauls couldnt addopt something similar more or less spontaniously when facing the romans.

Cheers on the nice piece of info bucellarii . Ceasar indeed had to justify his war, so depicting the gauls as fierce warriors with some unusual fighting techniques could be usefull.

cheers.

[bucellarii]

But I do want to make a further point about 'testudo' itself: it can mean something as simple as resembling a tortoise. Or, why couldn't have the Gallic soldiers spontaneously shielded themselves in a way that resembled the testudo? That's very different from consciously and explicitly enacting a practiced manoeuver, but heck, any group of men, whatever the training, can spontaneously fall to the knee at a similar point to protect themselves from missiles.

I agree with you on this point

Hell, nobody has ever suggested Gallic or Belgic warriors manoeuvred themselves in the same manner as disciplined legionaries. That is self-evidently absurd and is almost certainly not what Caesar suggests at B.G 2.6.

No, evidence for formations cannot come from singular mentions such as these; it needs to be repeated and corroborated with graphical evidence where possible

Agreed again

However explicit literary and graphical corroborative evidence that decisively settles historical discourse is less common than might be desired in the field of classical studies. For example, witness the on-going debate about the arms and armaments of Hellenistic Thureophoroi and Thorakitai. To the best of my knowledge no consensus has been reached despite extensive discussion about the subject

I must add however that I’m in agreement with J.F Lazenby who in his preface to Hannibal’s War wrote …it is always worthwhile asking new questions, even if it is impossible, or almost impossible, to answer them

Regards

buc

Cheers on the nice piece of info bucellarii

No problem, buddy!

[SigniferOne]

Indeed, great info and discussion bucellarii, hope to see you more on these forums!

[Hister]

Agreed - academic brainstorming is a much needed thing and it comes in big sways from bucellarii.

[bucellarii]

Cheers guys

I will certainly be around for future discussion and debate

[bucellarii]

I was just flicking through books 1-5 of Livy and was surprised to find the following entry regarding a Gallic assault during the sack of Rome in 390 BCE:

Prima luce signo dato multitudo omnis in foro instruitur; inde clamore sublato ac testudine facta subeunt

translated as

At daybreak the signal was given and the whole of their number formed up in the Forum. Raising their battle-shout and locking their shields together over their heads they advanced.

or alternatively

On a signal given, at the first light, their whole multitude was marshalled in the Forum, from whence, after raising the shout and forming a testudo, they advanced

Livy 5.43

Information for this period would previously have been handed down by word of mouth so the written sources on which Livy based his own work (i.e. Fabius Pictor, Calpurnius Piso, Licinius Macer, Valerius Antias and Quintus Tubero) were clearly not wholly reliable (something that Livy himself acknowleges i.e. 4.23). Therefore passages of this type are problematic to say the least. However I was previously unaware of this particular detail and thought others might be interested in it as well.

Sig

I promise to post nothing else about the testudo. Hell, it is not even a subject that particularly interests me

[Rorarii]

your referring to the Senones assault on the Capitol?

Makes sense if someone if throwing javelins / stones / anything from a great height down onto you! So anyone could make a rough and ready testudo but only trained, disciplined troops could make a testudo where shields overlap like tiles on a roof?

[we4kf00l]

I guesss all ancient armies could make an improvised testudo as a natural reaction to attacks from above. Moving in this as a orderly formation however, would require extensive training and drilling.

[bucellarii]

your referring to the Senones assault on the Capitol?

So anyone could make a rough and ready testudo but only trained, disciplined troops could make a testudo where shields overlap like tiles on a roof?

Moving in this as a orderly formation however, would require extensive training and drilling.

I have been deliberately reluctant to express my own views on this subject, largely because I haven't sifted through the available evidence with any degree of rigour. I am also reluctant to extend the debate much further. I do not want to highjack a thread designed to discuss PI and threby incur Sig's wrath

However what you guys say makes a large amount of common sense.

For example, Caesar again mentions the testudo in relation to the Gallic relief attack at Alesia

Some of the enemy threw missiles, others formed a testudo and moved up close; exhausted troops were continually being replaced by fresh

Clearly whatever close order formation Vercassivellaunus' troops adopt it seems to me they would lack the discipline and training to manoeuvre with anything like the effectiveness of Roman legionaries. Whilst the formation may not have been entirely improvised on the spot it is also inherently improbable that any degree of sustained drilling would have occurred prior to the campaign. Therefore I suppose we are comparing apples with oranges

Cheers!

[Hister]

EB gave us permission to use their work. Really great gesture from them!

[acsc2000]

Indeed!

and it also speeds things up, right?