Cursus Honorum Question

[Sh3rpa]

Greetings all,

I have been searching a bit for some answers to no avail, so bear with me..

Do Roman Characters/family members/Generals gain office if they are outside Rome?

If not, do they gain more offices, quicker, if they are in Rome?

I just can't bring myself to giving characters provinces/governerships/command without imperium.

Ya gotta be a pro-consul if you wanna milk a province!

[QuintusSertorius]

Yes they gain offices outside of Rome (client rulers do too, even though they never move). No idea if it's faster or not if at Rome.

You might be waiting a long while before you have any family member proconsuls; to date only my original faction heir has been a consul, though I've had several praetors. And I'm 25 years into the game.

[Sh3rpa]

I'm at 250 and I had the original consul and one other.

I don't think I will violate my rule, however, and send out ex praetors and whatnot. Guess the party in Rome continues.

For command, I've been using military tribunes after I lost my second consul.

[Maxinius Scipio]

Well, if you ever get bored with using Military Tribunes for everything, you could, alternatively, use Praetors to command armies if they have a high influence. In my campaigns, I frequently allow influential men or men popular with the Plebeians to lead armies even if they don't hold any office. My reasons are that popular men would often ask the Plebeian assemblies to grant them command of an army, and sometimes if the Consuls were unpopular I'm sure the Senate would allow a very influential men to lead a campaign.

[QuintusSertorius]

Well, it worked for Gnaeus Pompeius who became a general without even sitting in the Senate. And consul without ever being elected to any earlier posts.

[Sh3rpa]

yeah, at 240 bc its a lil early for personal armies, however.


I have indeed begun using praetors as governors, seeing as how they do have some imperium.

Military tribunes still my generals. its working well, i have about 4 men in Rome, alternating command, with one ex praetor as governor (or leader of my family as i see it).

Now, though, most of my military tribunes are under 20, and still need schooling, so I have very little eligible commanders.

I enjoy the way I am playing this. It's as historically accurate as I can get, and not employing a great amount of governors has limited my finances (anything to make it harder).

But I am role playing a pompey-ish scenario at the moment. An ex military tribune/ex praetor of mine was given a command, and was harrasing carthago's surrounding territory for a while. The army wasn't personally raised by him, but he did commandeer it after his praetorship was up. On the way back from Africa, he stopped off in Sardinia and took it (think i was a little behind history in acquiring it). He currently refuses to disband the army and come back to Rome, under the auspice of taming the city. I may declare him an enemy of the Senate and People of Rome, I can give a stack/family member to the rebel faction through a interface command, correct?

[QuintusSertorius]

Shouldn't need many governors early on; not if you're progressing through the government levels. With type IV you get a governor for free.

Praetors have imperium, and later on when they governed provinces they could lead armies. Quaestors were often legates or tribunes in a province.

[johnhughthom]

QS, do you not find it a bit annoying when your client rulers get senatorial offices, this is the one thing that stops me using level 4 govts. Although I believe it won't happem in 1.1.

[QuintusSertorius]

A little, mostly because it reduces the chances of my family members (plebian especially) of getting elected to office.

[Sh3rpa]

QS,

Even in the original homeland cities I won't use governors without imperium.

They start as level 1.

I don't force myself to use the whole government system if it seems logical. For example, Tarentum began as 3 (low romanization). I enslaved all the epirotes/greeks there. So far, only Syracusa has been a large enough city (large amount of foreigners, didn't enslave em) to deem client/ally.

I understand roles in the cursus as well, but thx.

John,

I find it EXTREMELY annoying, especially when they are supposed to be a local leader. That would make them not even citizens.

[johnhughthom]

A little, mostly because it reduces the chances of my family members (plebian especially) of getting elected to office.

Are you sure it actually affects your family members getting offices?
If you like playing as the Romans historically there is a nice little change made by konny over at the org, here is a link to the thread if anyone is interested. http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=98407

[Sh3rpa]

um, no a local leader would not be a citizen.

Citizenship was not extended to a recently conquered city that is now an ally.

To me a local leader is just that, local. He is not a Roman imported to control them. He is a local leader given recognition by Rome in order to control the populous. Once a city gains Latin Status, then the local magistrates would earn citizenship. Allied cities' magistrates wouldn't.

And even if the magistrate was given citizenship, I don't think he himself would be able to gain entrance into the Senate. Perhaps his offspring. The local magistrate would be a rich man, and would probably be akin to an equite, though I am unsure if he would have this status "officially".

[QuintusSertorius]

Are you sure it actually affects your family members getting offices?
If you like playing as the Romans historically there is a nice little change made by konny over at the org, here is a link to the thread if anyone is interested. http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=98407

Shame it's not saved game compatible, I'm a long way in now and not about to start again. In any case it's not that hard to get command stars, just win a few battles.

um, no a local leader would not be a citizen.

Citizenship was not extended to a recently conquered city that is now an ally.

To me a local leader is just that, local. He is not a Roman imported to control them. He is a local leader given recognition by Rome in order to control the populous. Once a city gains Latin Status, then the local magistrates would earn citizenship. Allied cities' magistrates wouldn't.

And even if the magistrate was given citizenship, I don't think he himself would be able to gain entrance into the Senate. Perhaps his offspring. The local magistrate would be a rich man, and would probably be akin to an equite, though I am unsure if he would have this status "officially".

I don't mean the whole settlement, just the client ruler himself. It was common practice of conquering generals to make local allies citizens, it stands to reason a client ruler would be someone similarly trusted.

[Sh3rpa]

Shame it's not saved game compatible, I'm a long way in now and not about to start again. In any case it's not that hard to get command stars, just win a few battles.



I don't mean the whole settlement, just the client ruler himself. It was common practice of conquering generals to make local allies citizens, it stands to reason a client ruler would be someone similarly trusted.

Do you have a source for that last sentence? As far as I have studied, local leaders were only made citizens when their city/region received Latin status (the people remained "latins"). Circa 240 BC, Romans did not bestow citizenship to anyone (leaders or people) in a non Latin community.

Edit:

Papal, you have to destroy the type 4 and build the type 3

[Papal_Knight]

ah, ok. thanks.

[QuintusSertorius]

Do you have a source for that last sentence? As far as I have studied, local leaders were only made citizens when their city/region received Latin status (the people remained "latins"). Circa 240 BC, Romans did not bestow citizenship to anyone (leaders or people) in a non Latin community.

Not a specific one, no. I know it was common practice to make Italian allies who fought well citizens as reward for their valour.

[QuintusSertorius]

Um, a local leader probably would be a citizen, as part of the deal that involves Rome fostering and protecting them.

I use type IV first and progress through the stages every 20-30 years (ie a generation). A fair few early provinces (Taras, Rhegion, Bononia) recently went over to type III when their client rulers died.

Most of my family members (especially younger) are camped out in Roma most of the time, I only send out older ones as governors, although sometimes younger ones with good management traits do go.

Old warhorses are often retired to Capua.

[Papal_Knight]

I use type IV first and progress through the stages every 20-30 years (ie a generation). A fair few early provinces (Taras, Rhegion, Bononia) recently went over to type III when their client rulers died.

hey QS, question; did that type III transformation, after the client ruler died, happen automatically, or did you have to manually do it (with destroy & rebuild)??

thanks in advance.

[Sh3rpa]

I just don't see that as being the case during the time period in question (republic). Latins weren't even citizens, and you bet they had to fight well! After the fighting, they were still Latins. Allies getting citizenship? no way!

It wasn't really a case of fighting bravely to earn citizenship back then, more a case of if your area was loyal for long enough, it would be made Latin. Then citizenship would come later down the road. Back then citizenship wasn't handed out lightly. When Princeps ran the show they could bestow citizenship to whomever (still would have to deal with the backlash however) When I get back to my apartment I can cite numerous cases.

I am straining to try and remember an example of Roman allies going directly to citizenship, but I can't. Thats why I was hoping you had a source.

Like I said, the only magistrates/leaders that were named citizens were the leaders of Latin communities. I can support this with one of my books as well, which I will do when I get back.

A newly defeated Syracusa, if made an ally, would definitely have a local magistrate. The Romans didn't worry too hard if he would revolt. If he did, they would kill him along with most of his city, enslave his women, and put some other poor soul in his position that would think better of crossing Rome.

[QuintusSertorius]

I just don't see that as being the case during the time period in question (republic). Latins weren't even citizens, and you bet they had to fight well! After the fighting, they were still Latins. Allies getting citizenship? no way!

During the later Republic it was most certainly the case. Marius, Sulla, Caesar and others all made non-Roman troops citizens for acts of valour on the battlefield. Hell, Pompey made lots of Asiatic Greek civilians citizens (and his clients) when he "conquered" the East. Again I don't have specific sources, but I've read it often enough to take it as a given that gifts of citizenship to specific individuals were commonly used currency as reward.

Magistrates with imperium (ie praetors and consuls, along with propraetors and proconsuls) had the power to grant citizenship. Indeed there were scandals about some governors selling them openly.