Teutonic Knights as a seperate faction

[MyNameIsGreat]

Good idea or bad? I think it would be cool to have the Teutons as a separate faction in the holy lands, especially once BC goes to Kingdoms...

[IrAr]

I like your name (it truly is great), but I disagree. There are many more viable factions than the Teutonic Order--the Zengid Sultanate for example.

[Otsman]

eh, the teutonic knights had a somewhat limited role in the holylands , it was only in the last crusades of the 14th century did they play an active role. even then it was still only a handfull of teutons that went around europe recruiting nobles to join them, most of them french or english

[Ahiga]

Bad for our mod. The nuances of it are up for debate, however the impression we've gotten from what we've read is that the Templars were in no way an independent political power in the region, while they possessed much autonomy it was not as though they could or would conquer independently of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. They are basically like the hashashin in being a political presence, yet not being able to be authentically represented in the limitations of the Total War Engine, being ranked in the same status as true-blue factions like the Ghorids or the Kypchaks.

However, mods are about depicting your creative approach on history or fantasy, so other mods are not wrong in including the Templars. We however will not feature them, the Hashashin, or other political powers which were not up to the requirements of our full-on factions.

[MyNameIsGreat]

Bad for our mod. The nuances of it are up for debate, however the impression we've gotten from what we've read is that the Templars were in no way an independent political power in the region, while they possessed much autonomy it was not as though they could or would conquer independently of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. They are basically like the hashashin in being a political presence, yet not being able to be authentically represented in the limitations of the Total War Engine, being ranked in the same status as true-blue factions like the Ghorids or the Kypchaks.

However, mods are about depicting your creative approach on history or fantasy, so other mods are not wrong in including the Templars. We however will not feature them, the Hashashin, or other political powers which were not up to the requirements of our full-on factions.

Thanks for the reply.

My inspiration for asking was the DLV mod that features TK as an independent faction. But now that I think of it, they also had settlements in Northern Europe (aka crusades or wars against Lithuanians and Poles)so it was more fitting than BC.

I second the mention of Zengid Sultanate however. Maybe even an independent Antioch if there are left over factions.

Anyone can lock this if they wish. (Not that anyone needs my permission )

[es_bih]

Bad for our mod. The nuances of it are up for debate, however the impression we've gotten from what we've read is that the Templars were in no way an independent political power in the region, while they possessed much autonomy it was not as though they could or would conquer independently of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. They are basically like the hashashin in being a political presence, yet not being able to be authentically represented in the limitations of the Total War Engine, being ranked in the same status as true-blue factions like the Ghorids or the Kypchaks.

However, mods are about depicting your creative approach on history or fantasy, so other mods are not wrong in including the Templars. We however will not feature them, the Hashashin, or other political powers which were not up to the requirements of our full-on factions.

Tripoli and the Assassins make much more sense than the Templars. The Templars could be a script spawn maybe (in the sense of Richard). Furthermore, the 4th Crusade should get its own faction slot if possible, thus establishing a true Latin Empire that would give trouble to the Byzantines and bring more challenge into playing them. As of now its been relatively easy to gain dominance over the Kypchaks and the Anatolian Turks.

[Aradiel]

As mentioned earlier, the 4th crusade should definetly be an emerging faction. This will make the west a real competition, and will add more european warfare into the mod. This does make more sense than any other order whatsoever faction because it was real, and from the gameview spoken theres plenty of room for more provinces in the west. I miss the balkan holdings of the ere, 2-3 more provinces and the latin empire is ready to go.

The only problem is see is that this emerging faction wont be playable right? :hmmmoes a faction need to have a settlement from start or can it start with 1 general unit? Because then the faction could start with just a small stack and get reinforcements during 3rd and especially 4th crusade. The best would be to spread the map in the west to venice though and make it the startloc for the latin empire.

[Ahiga]

Unplayable, but there is a certain 'mysterious' nature to making unplayables playable. I have heard it's possible, but I don't know how.

[Miraj]

Frankly, my feelings towards "Orders" being factions is same as my position towards people who would like the Hashashin/Nizari Ismailis as a faction. I don't think its a realistic or feasible idea frankly. Orders are precisely that, orders. They were often states within state and had their own fiefdoms, but never large enough to warrant a faction slot. The exception being of course the northern Crusades where the Teutonics had much greater power.

We've rejected ideas of having a Hashashin/Nizari Ismaili faction before and I can't see our position on Templar or Teutonic factions being any different or changing.

[Miraj]

It doesn't need to be locked. We're always open to ideas and being convinced.

[Jush]

Keeping the Orders as guild additions to cities is probably the best course of action. How about something else: There is talk of adding in ethnicities to BC, each with their own pros and cons. Has there been any talk of extending that feature to encompass Knightly Orders?

For instance, making it possible for KoJ (and Georgian & Armenian?) generals and family members to have an ethnicity trait, and also a chance of gaining a "Templar" or "Hospitaller" (or even Teutonic Knight) trait? As to what sort of pros and cons those traits would have is up to the BC team, but I imagine this could enrich the experience of playing with the Christian factions.


P.S.: There could also be variations on those traits...

True Hospitaller/Templar: "This man is a steadfast and honest member of the knightly order, and takes his vows with the utmost sincerity (+morale boost, +piety, +population happiness based on health). However, his high-minded convictions can prove to be too inflexible, causing him to weigh his loyalty to God and the Order against the demands of his leige (-1/-2 loyalty)."

False Templar/Hospitaller: "This man uses his membership in the Templars as a facade to hide his irreligious and at times depraved behavior. His actions continually go against his vows, and his position of power has allowed him to silence many of those who object to this (-4 piety, +2 dread). Still, the rumors and whispers of the hidden truth find their way through streets and taverns, spreading dread and disapproval among the people. However, if revealed for what he is, only the protection of his liege will save him from a sorrowful end -- for that, he is as loyal as a lapdog (+4 loyalty)"

[Darvist]

Was just thinking could Templar and Teutonic give missions like Merchants guilds do. And you win free units or buildings by appeasing them. Perhaps event triggered missions eather buy time or doing something. If ya can't edit the missions to something specific or at least less random and stupid it probably wouldn't be a good idea.

Having some way to show the orders power would be nice.

[merlinuscdxx]

Keeping the Orders as guild additions to cities is probably the best course of action. How about something else: There is talk of adding in ethnicities to BC, each with their own pros and cons. Has there been any talk of extending that feature to encompass Knightly Orders?

For instance, making it possible for KoJ (and Georgian & Armenian?) generals and family members to have an ethnicity trait, and also a chance of gaining a "Templar" or "Hospitaller" (or even Teutonic Knight) trait? As to what sort of pros and cons those traits would have is up to the BC team, but I imagine this could enrich the experience of playing with the Christian factions.


P.S.: There could also be variations on those traits...

True Hospitaller/Templar: "This man is a steadfast and honest member of the knightly order, and takes his vows with the utmost sincerity (+morale boost, +piety, +population happiness based on health). However, his high-minded convictions can prove to be too inflexible, causing him to weigh his loyalty to God and the Order against the demands of his leige (-1/-2 loyalty)."

False Templar/Hospitaller: "This man uses his membership in the Templars as a facade to hide his irreligious and at times depraved behavior. His actions continually go against his vows, and his position of power has allowed him to silence many of those who object to this (-4 piety, +2 dread). Still, the rumors and whispers of the hidden truth find their way through streets and taverns, spreading dread and disapproval among the people. However, if revealed for what he is, only the protection of his liege will save him from a sorrowful end -- for that, he is as loyal as a lapdog (+4 loyalty)"

NICE...I really like the idea of the Knightly Orders showing up as traits. Just a suggestion though, on the true Templar/Hospitaller I'd suggest both orders getting the +piety and +morale, but giving the Templar trait a trade or tax bonus instead of a + health, since it is well known that the Templar order was heavily involved in finance.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

@ topic starter,

Bad idea...

[Miraj]

Love the traits and mission idea. Will jot it down for 2.0.

I'd think converting the heathens would be a great mission for a Templar or Hospitaller order. Especially in such a non-christian environs.

[KaerMorhen]

It won't be bad to have a chance to recruit Teutonic Knights in few settlements (KoJ; KoA) but as separate faction?, no it won't work!

[Aradiel]

Basically the crusaderstates are underrepresented at the moment imo, but it really depends on the timeframe we are talking about. While the KoJ was practically anihilated by saladin at hattin 1187 and only brought back to existence with the 3rd crusade and the conquest of acre it will be really hard to represent all the different aspects properly. The latin empire should be the number 1 on the list, but if you want to stick to the order faction idea i would strongly recommend to make kingdom of cyprus an emerging faction at 1192(hint hint!) which was also created during the 3rd crusade by richard the 3. and lasted until the 1480s as it became a dominion to venice and later the osmanic empire. This would be the perfect place to make an order faction.

The germans however played a big role in that particular crusade. Barbarossa had the largest crusader army ever asembled consisting of about 25000 germans plus large contingents from many important dukes and lords as the duke of austria as well as hungarians and other allies up to 100.000 by estimitation. They traveled through the balkans, passed through the byzantine empire, where backstabbed and gave the ere a beating until the emperor finally resigned. The Sultanate of rum also attacked them, yet they defeated them twice and even seized their capital. I would also like to remember to the tale of robin hood where lionheart was imprisoned, which is actually true.

After barbarossa got himself drowned, his son died soon after through disease the duke of austria took command of the remaining army and joined the siege of acre which was led by the remnants of the KOJ forces. Soon after the french and then the english arrived via ships, while the germans already had 3-4 major battles and won them all. Richard got Leopold of Austria pissed as he removed his banner and didnt treat him as an equal. The duke demanded an equal position to the kings as he was the highest ranking representor of the hrr and left with the majority of the forces because of this incident.

Who knows what a few thousand men at arms may have changed ? Anyways richard regreted that certainly later, as he was on his way home he traveled incognito but forgot to remove his insignia ring, was recognized in a pub in vienna and got himself imprisoned for 2 years. The english had to pay 23 TONS of silver to get him free. Leopold used his share to make vienna a fortress which really paid of in 1529 when the turks failed to take the city, guess what they didnt refit the walls since then mostly.

So my point is clear: exellent idea to further improve the representation of crusader states and faction specific units, leaders, traits

[Draco Borealis]

Teutons? they "crusaded" alot but on the shores of Baltic sea not Med. You can put the Knights of St John, as they had a fully independent State on Rhodos Island from 1309 to 1520 AD, I wonder why they're so under represented in the mods, everybody concentrading on Templars and Teutons.

[Kip]

It's probably because a sovereign empire expanding out of Rhodes isn't very realistic, nor does it have historical basis (especially in the middle ages). Although it would be fun to see Rhodes able to pump out highly experienced Hospitallers should KOJ capture it, I don't think having a Hospitaller faction based in Rhodes would be beneficial to the mod.

The Teutons are implemented often because they in fact controlled a territorial nation in the Baltic (under actual control, not influence). I don't think you'll see them implemented as a faction in the Holy Land in any mods though.

The Templars are added alot because, basically, they're the Templars . They're famous, the were massively influential, and perhaps above all, they were rich. Regardless whether they actually controlled territory or not, these reasons are enough to convince some people they deserve an entire faction slot rather than a few units.

Oh, and concerning the Teuton/Templar/Hospitaller trait: could it be scripted so that generals stationed in settlements with chapterhouses were more likely to receive them? I know some traits are connected to buildings (like the Drunkeness ones) so is this a plausible idea?

[Sher Khan]

I must say, however, that missions of conversion were something of a rarity among the crusading movement - at least in the early times. The ultimate goal was to cleanse the Holy Lands rather than convert by sword.

But that's history, and this is Broken Crescent.

As for the Teutonic Question... I believe simply making them well trained mercenaries available to the Christian factions (around Antioch or something) would be enough to represent them without giving them a different line of buildings altogether. The Templars and Hospitallers already have the benefit of recruitment form either cities or castles, so the Teutons would be the odd one out if they were given their own building line.

Maybe you could make the Teutonic Knights a guild, but rather than allowing the KOJ to simply spam these guild buildings, only allow one global house and have it based in Antioch.

That way the player (or AI) can take Antioch and have it be unique in its recruitable Teutonics.



But then... does the KOJ really need yet another heavy cavalry unit no different from Latins, Templars, and Jerusalem Guard?