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Thread: Abortion and the Soul

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  1. #1

    Default Abortion and the Soul

    After having written an article for the local paper on the issue, I decided this would make perfect sense as an Ethos topic, all be it in altered form.

    This deals exclusively with abortion within the first trimester (first three months, about 13 weeks) and the Christian rejection of this practice due to the 'soul'.

    This remains one of the most controversial balances between a woman's life and her child's. Some people think that the fish-like creature even at 6 weeks is more important then the life of it's bearer, without which it is dead as it is. Even as late as 13 weeks the creature resembles little more then a 10cm long alien. Measure 10cm with your fingers, about the same size as a mouse, and completely incapable of surviving outside the womb.

    But within the first trimester I will also split it further, the stages of embryo (0-8 weeks) and early fetus (8+ weeks). Up until 8 weeks the collection of cells is no more capable of limb movement then a random assortment of human parts, it lacks working essential organs, although there is a brain (useless), lungs (useless) and blood vessels (useless, there being no red blood cells).

    But despite this thing being no more alive then a severed human hand, and having even fewer capabilities, the religious will continue to defend it's right to live. Why? It has a soul, and apparently has done since conception.

    Remember this belief was formed before people even knew the existence of sperm or eggs, before people discovered them and thought they could actually see little people curled up in the sperm. And yet so many still hold this ridiculous belief.

    Let's review the facts of conception. Millions of sperm are pumped into the uterus (a process not even requiring the presence of a male) and thrash about in the general direction of the fallopian tubes. Thousands of these will reach this distant destination, though most will simply die and be destroyed by the woman's natural defenses. Of these thousands most will die, unable to reach the egg due to being too feeble, or swimming in slightly the wrong direction. Of these hundreds left dozens will attack the egg, releasing digestive enzymes which dissolve it's defenses and allow the sperm's DNA to flow into the egg. This causes the exterior of the egg to turn rock hard. Those sperm who didn't get through are simply hacked to pieces by various natural defenses over the course of days to come.

    What remains is a zygote, which divides itself repeatedly, eventually forming a blastocyst. This is the collection of cells often used for experiments and transplantation purposes. Now, many religious people believe that somewhere in this process a 'soul' magically entered the cell, making it sacred and untouchable. Bear in mind that the blastocyst is no more alive then the thousands of skin cells you shed every day. Those people who will say "they're potential humans!" have not kept with the times. Now, with present science, you kill thousands of 'potential humans' every time you scratch your head.

    Also comes another problem. Twins. Now this can go two ways, either way it makes the claim for a soul sound ridiculous.
    If a single egg is fertilised, it can split at many points until very late in the pregnancy, long after the point of blastocyst. This results in identical, or even conjoined, twins. What happens now? The blastocyst only had one soul, when it split did another magically appear or does each twin only have half a soul? It's a ridiculous question for a ridiculous concept.
    If two eggs are fertilised, then they both gain a soul, according the Catholics and many other religions at least. Then what happens when the embryo merges, forming a single embryo? Does this human being suddenly have one soul, or does one get removed? Is there a titanic battle as the souls fight for their right to a body? I think not.

    There are a few religions, and cults of Christianity (by which I refer to all non-orthodox/catholic denominations) who have reformed to set the date later in pregnancy, and so escape their situation created by science. To which I can only say which person decided this? How are they able to magically determine when a soul enters the body? What gives them the right to decide when a soul forms? This is a very similar situation to the abolishment of purgatory by the Vatican.

    Light, like life, dies with the setting of a sun
    The Aneist's Perspective - A political and philosophical commentary

  2. #2

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    Great post, Ruin. We had this debate a while back, and there seems no way we can ever resolve the issue, unfortunately. Adding scientific terms increases my understanding but increases others' disdain.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    This is a good thread and I completely agree with ther OP. It takes awhile for a fetus to actually become semi-alive. Also, religious beliefs in "souls" should infiltrate laws scuh as those regarding abortion. America has a strict seperation of church and state.

    Also, there are the religious who completely agree with the OP but for religious reasons. Jews believe that a life is only created at birth and therefore many Jews are strong abortion advocates. However, in my opinion bringing a pro or anti-abortion religious belief into law making is bad because as I said there is a seperation of church and state. Abortion laws should be based on science and as the op said, science shows that it takes awhile for an living person to be formed.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    but the ferilised egg has potential. If left it will become a living being.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    but the ferilised egg has potential. If left it will become a living being.
    Read the whole post before posting in response.
    And no, most eggs won't reach even embryonic stage and are miscarried without the woman even noticing.
    Skin cells have potential, they can be treated and their DNA extracted to form an exact clone of a human being. Every cell in the human body is capable of creating another human, it just so happens eggs are the natural way of doing it, not the only way.

    Light, like life, dies with the setting of a sun
    The Aneist's Perspective - A political and philosophical commentary

  6. #6

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruin View Post
    Read the whole post before posting in response.
    And no, most eggs won't reach even embryonic stage and are miscarried without the woman even noticing.
    Skin cells have potential, they can be treated and their DNA extracted to form an exact clone of a human being. Every cell in the human body is capable of creating another human, it just so happens eggs are the natural way of doing it, not the only way.
    Very much true.

    As for the abortion/soul thing: (IMO of course) souls don't exist.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruin View Post
    Remember this belief was formed before people even knew the existence of sperm or eggs.
    I seriously doubt there was a time people didn't know about sperm and what its role was...

    The rest of the post is OK, though.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    I seriously doubt there was a time people didn't know about sperm and what its role was...

    The rest of the post is OK, though
    Think before microscopes. Of course people knew what semen was, but Sperm are smaller still then skin cells, you can't see them with the naked eye, and they certainly didn't think of developing large magnifying glasses just to study the contents of semen.

    Light, like life, dies with the setting of a sun
    The Aneist's Perspective - A political and philosophical commentary

  9. #9
    Gwendylyn's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    Quote Originally Posted by SirPaladin View Post
    I seriously doubt there was a time people didn't know about sperm and what its role was...

    The rest of the post is OK, though.
    Yea, that was a time when many believed that the sperm had all the necessary material for making a child and the female was just an incubator. It puts bastardization and the sin of adultery in perspective.

  10. #10
    Eli Phoenix's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    @ Ruin...nice post, as Shyam Popat said we never could come to an agreement on most anything, but it's a good twist bringing up the belief of souls, and whether or not all prolife people believe in souls...idk...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    Yes there is a titanic battle. The evolving body has a soul awaiting the first conscious breath of life. That soul does Not inhabit the evolving body of the child , the waiting soul inhabits the pre-materialized universe. What appears as absurd to you is not at all absurd to the souls of the universe. No two human nor animal births ever has had the exact same characteristics in body nor conscious behavior. Individuality is in all living creatures of higher order. The killing of the unborn is virtually the same as the born : the soul is removed from the actually or potential time bound journey. The drama of realized or potential self will is aborted on the dissolution of the material body. Persons like your self are only so sure of your position because you don’t know what you speak off. After your own death as come you will be forever reminded of your blind arrogance.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    Yes there is a titanic battle. The evolving body has a soul awaiting the first conscious breath of life. That soul does Not inhabit the evolving body of the child , the waiting soul inhabits the pre-materialized universe. What appears as absurd to you is not at all absurd to the souls of the universe. No two human nor animal births ever has had the exact same characteristics in body nor conscious behavior. Individuality is in all living creatures of higher order. The killing of the unborn is virtually the same as the born : the soul is removed from the actually or potential time bound journey. The drama of realized or potential self will is aborted on the dissolution of the material body. Persons like your self are only so sure of your position because you don’t know what you speak off. After your own death as come you will be forever reminded of your blind arrogance.
    Prove it

    Explain how it is we who are the arrogant, those who rest on reason and empirical science, whereas it is you who is so absolutely knowledgeable that everyone else is wrong and you hold the one truth, gifted to you by your vast incalculable insight.
    Explain how you come about these truths, how you know exactly how souls act, yet having never seen them and never come across them. Did God come to you and explain all this in person? If so, I advise you see a psychiatrist immediately, as there may be deeper problems then ignorance and arrogance involved.

    Light, like life, dies with the setting of a sun
    The Aneist's Perspective - A political and philosophical commentary

  13. #13

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    Prove it!

    You would be amazed at what could be shown. I tell you the truth , the Universe is a living bowl of souls. All things that happen are manifested within the soul infested, shall we say, universe. Dis-believe at your own risk.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    A pro-lifer wishing to use law as an instrument of oppression to prevent women from aborting unwanted foetuses must first demonstrate that such a thing as a soul exists. The law cannot concern itself with fanciful feel-goodism, but only with evidence. And since theologians and philosophers have been unable to show the existence of the soul for thousands of years it is pretty safe to say that the pro-life cause will always be bunk.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    I think this thread would be better off without the blanket statements of 'you are wrong and if you do not realize this you will suffer!' Otherwise this will devolve rather quickly...

    He's asking for proof of your claims, and you say he would be amazed. Amaze us!

    Great OP Ruin.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Abortion and the Soul

    You would be amazed at what could be shown.
    Go on, I await it eagerly. Not much amazes me nowadays.
    I tell you the truth , the Universe is a living bowl of souls.
    And you know this is the truth why?

    All things that happen are manifested within the soul infested, shall we say, universe.
    Prove it... this could last a while

    Dis-believe at your own risk.
    I await God's heavenly lightning to strike me down!

    Now, if you would be so kind as to actually respond to my points...

    Light, like life, dies with the setting of a sun
    The Aneist's Perspective - A political and philosophical commentary

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