Foaming at the Mouth Anti-Semites

[Da Skinna]

Taking a look at a lot of old philosophers, political thinkers, leaders, and the like, there's really one thing I notice that kind of binds a lot of them. They're all foaming-at-the-mouths anti-Semites...

It begs the question: how can they be so progressive and smart about some things yet so stupid about others?

They contribute art, new forms of government, music, philosophy, religion, and yet when it comes to race it's "throw the Jew down the well"...

Why is it taking us so long to figure things out? Especially something as basic as our humanity?

[Icefrisco]

It depends who you look at but a lot of "noble" people in history have hated Jews. Richard the Lionhearted was extremely anti-Semitic. Martin Luther who I believe led a rightful reformation became a strong anti-Semite when the Jews refused to ally themselves with him. However, certain people like Frederick the Great didnt mind the Jewish religion or Jewish people but felt that Jews(he often meant Polish Jews) were politically untrustworthy. In my opinion this form of "anti-Semitism" isnt really anti-Semitism. Its more of ethnic politics. Certain gorups such as Polish Jews were very pro-Polish and didnt like being under Prussian rule. Yet, in late 19th century France Jews were loyal and were considered untrustworthy. In that case I would call the French anti-Semitic.

[Last Roman]

It often has to do with Christian theology. In the Renaissance, even when the philosophy of humanism came around, doesn't mean that religion was tossed out the window. The great minds of that time still clung to Christianity (especially the northern Renaissance), and with it, some of the old Christian thought (Christians blamed the Jews for the death of Jesus, which opens a whole other can of worms on the hypocrisies of said religion, but that's for another thread)

Basically, while certain aspects of religion were questioned, others were not.

[jarnomiedema]

I agree that it's quite disturbing to see so many influential historical people go on and on about the insidiousness of Jews and their distrust of the people of that religion..

On this field I can only relate to Dutch history; in general Jews were welcome in the Netherlands during the Golden Age because of the policy of tolerance, although they were certainly not loved. I've read several historical sources about New Amsterdam (later New York), where the Reverend Johannes Megapolensis kept going on and on to Peter Stuyvesant about the fact that there were Jews living in the colony! Both men considered it an outrage and wanted to do something about it, but they were both put in their place by the West India Company, which followed the official rules of the state (and didn't want to jeopardize the economic activities of the Jewish community)..

There's one little thing about Jews in the Netherlands that we can all be a little proud of though: in 1941, following the first nazi-raids in Amsterdam, the civil servants and a large of part of the population of the city laid down their jobs and took to the streets in protest. Their slogan was a bit crude, but very interesting: "They may be damned Jews, but they're OUR damned Jews!" Every year, to this day, the February Strike is remembered as a moment when ordinary people stood up for other ordinary people against tyranny..

[ivan_the_terrible]

It often has to do with Christian theology. In the Renaissance, even when the philosophy of humanism came around, doesn't mean that religion was tossed out the window. The great minds of that time still clung to Christianity (especially the northern Renaissance), and with it, some of the old Christian thought (Christians blamed the Jews for the death of Jesus, which opens a whole other can of worms on the hypocrisies of said religion, but that's for another thread)

Basically, while certain aspects of religion were questioned, others were not.

I know what you mean. During the porgroms in Tsarist Russia, a frequent 'percieved offense' on the rioters' part was that "They killed our Christ". I personally think this is hilarious - its like - and just what ethnic group did Christ belong to?

[Da Skinna]

Well, that's good at least it wasn't all racial hatred, but doesn't lessen the issue by Jews being seen as politically untrustworthy.

It makes sense they would look after themselves from a world that for as long as anyone can remember has tried to get rid of them, oppress, or enslave them.

So does that give credence to anti-Semites? Does that make their whole stance any more valid? Because if so, this whole thing just becomes another two-way street of tolerance and cooperation. Something that works these days, I hear...

[roy34543]

Being politically untrustworth can be said of lots of countries.
But then jews didnt really have much political power except the theorized or imagined version, most power is like that however, but when you look back at history you realize how jews were always at the mercy of whatever country they were in.

There were a lot of christian anti-semites. at the end of the day it boils down to the fact that they hate it that there is a rich person living near them that they have an excuse to hate ("Dey killed Jebus!)

[Ahiga]

Not an expert, but Judaism has had a remarkable endurance in surviving through the ages, with it's survival probably above all hinging upon the fact that they lived as a separate sub-culture within just about anywhere they existed. Ethnic Minorities have never really been appreciated, having the demand of integrating with the denial of being integrated - Look at how Immigrants from Europe, Asia, or Latin America are treated today in America, or how the Muslim Immigrants are seen in Europe. It doesn't matter that the Jews were not abrasive or aggressive in their differences, they remained a people apart who had alien customs and a foreign religion with negative reputation in the bible, leading to the majority of noteworthy figures not really being friendly towards them.

[wilpuri]

Taking a look at a lot of old philosophers, political thinkers, leaders, and the like, there's really one thing I notice that kind of binds a lot of them. They're all foaming-at-the-mouths anti-Semites...

It begs the question: how can they be so progressive and smart about some things yet so stupid about others?

They contribute art, new forms of government, music, philosophy, religion, and yet when it comes to race it's "throw the Jew down the well"...

Why is it taking us so long to figure things out? Especially something as basic as our humanity?

Why do so many people insist on viewing complex matters simplistically?

[Last Roman]

Why do so many people insist on viewing complex matters simplistically?

it's not that complex though. It's true that many enlightened figures despised or distrusted Jews. From Luther to Voltaire.

[wilpuri]

it's not that complex though. It's true that many enlightened figures despised or distrusted Jews. From Luther to Voltaire.

But the assumption that this despise and distrust is merely because of 'stupidity' is simplistic, that was my point.

It begs the question: how can they be so progressive and smart about some things yet so stupid about others?

If all these bright minds have such opinions, my first assumption would not be 'they must be stupid', it would be 'they know something I don't'. And that's usually the case, but people don't really bother looking into the reasons here. Anti-Semitism is not automatically some irrational reflex or virus, as it is often depicted. Jews have often been in roles which have earned them the distrust of the surrounding society, for example the Jewish Communists in Poland right after the second world war. Or you could refer to my recent topic, which mentions at least in passing the great contribution of Jews to the current ideology of the American Presidents' administration, and perhaps begin to at least cognitively understand why many Arabs are anti-Semites, beyond hating Israel. Not saying you would sympathize, not that kind of understanding, but purely on the cognitive level, you could see where this anti-Semitism comes from.

There's a lot of interesting literature surrounding the subject, and its a very intersting area of study, because its an issue that no longer exists in the public debate or even the public consciousness, in other words, the "Jewish Question" has been ignored ever since the Holocaust [and the subsequent creation of Israel].

I'm sure most of these bright minds had very rational reasons for their supposed anti-semitism, but then there are also those, who have an unhealthy fixation. To quote another bright mind, Hillaire Belloc, in describing an anti-semitic book by Nesta Webster:

"In my opinion it is a lunatic book. She is one of those people who have got one cause on the brain. It is the good old 'Jewish revolutionary' bogey. But there is a type of unstable mind which cannot rest without morbid imaginings, and the conception of a single cause simplifies thought. With this good woman it is the Jews, with some people it is the Jesuits, with others Freemasons and so on. The world is more complex than that."

Yet, he had no problem in admitting that there indeed existed something which was termed at the time "The Jewish Question". Also the Jews admitted it and discussed it, and also many of their best and brightest sought to solve it, the common suggestions being assimilation or the establishment of a Jewish homeland (zionism), in Palestine or elsewhere. If you want an insight into Jewish intellectual thought from the times that the "Jewish Question" was hotly debated, I suggest taking a look at the writings and life of Moses Hess.

[Last Roman]

But the assumption that this despise and distrust is merely because of 'stupidity' is simplistic, that was my point.

ah

I think he used the word because it's easier

but I won't speak for him

[Da Skinna]

ah

I think he used the word because it's easier

but I won't speak for him

He spoke for me, Wilpuri.

In lieu of complicating my own thoughts, I ended with "stupid". How fitting it must be.

[jankren]

"throw the Jew down the well"...

Lol, thats like one of my favorite songs.

[roy34543]

No matter how you put it. Even if all the jews of the world are evil bar one. Then anti-semitism remains stupidity.
You cant say "well 99% of them earned it!, So i can hate all of them!" and its not even near that amount that you can say deserve anti-semitism any more then the russians deserve anti-russianisim or the french deserve anti-frenchisim or anti - north koreanisim or whatever the word is
I do know anti-semitism includes all semitic people, not only jews. But for the sake of the argument ill say anti-semitic as anti-jewish.

[Icefrisco]

Lol, thats like one of my favorite songs.

Its great when he does it.

Why do so many people insist on viewing complex matters simplistically?

The only complex part is the number of reasons why people hated Jews.

it's not that complex though. It's true that many enlightened figures despised or distrusted Jews. From Luther to Voltaire.

I didnt know that about Voltaire. Did he ever give a specific reason?

But the assumption that this despise and distrust is merely because of 'stupidity' is simplistic, that was my point.

That makes sense.

Jews have often been in roles which have earned them the distrust of the surrounding society, for example the Jewish Communists in Poland right after the second world war.

That was something I could never understand. It wasnt just the Poles but in many Slavic countries many Jews returned but were either killed or had their lives threatened. I never understood why. Even a survivor I knew who returned to Slovakia but was thrown out never gave a reason why he was thrown out. Its hard for me to believe they threw him out just for being different.

Another thing your post brings up is why only certain non-Jewish countries kicked out Jews while others didnt. How come the French did not kick out the Jews that returned to France? I never understood this.

[Каие]

Its great when he does it.

Only because he's Jewish too.

Well they were mostly kicked out due to the kings owing them debt and not willing to pay.

The fact that they ran most of the banks which lent people money and were awfully harsh and them killing jesus had nothing to do with it?

[Da Skinna]

Voltaire didn't like 'em because they didn't assimilate, they kept to themselves, which I think he couldn't stand.

[roy34543]

Well they were mostly kicked out due to the kings owing them debt and not willing to pay.

[Icefrisco]

Only because he's Jewish too.

I dont think thats the only reason. Comedians can make fun of other groups and religions if they do it well. Just look at Blazing Saddles(Mel Brooks movie). He was making fun of Mormons by having the Sioux Indians speak Yiddish(Mormons believe Indians are Jewish). Mel Brooks made fun of Mormons and made it funny. However, when people like Michael Richards make racist jokes they arent always funny.

Most people dont know he is Jewish. I guess some peoplenever noticed a name like Sacha Baron Cohen sounds Jewish.