Can we no longer point to the past?

**awisler** · March 04, 2008, 09:12 PM

It seems to me that a lot of people bring up things that will occur or are beginning to occur because they are just slightly similar to something that happened in history. But can we really still point to history to spot cycles that will occur anymore?

For example the colonialism thread, China may have been able to colonize back in the day just like other nations had it been able to do so, but in todays world communication is so quick and times are just different that it would not happen.

In my head its clear but when I try to type it out it is hard to explain, but times have just changed SO much that I don't really think that we can reliably point to history very often anymore. Am I wrong in thinking this?

**Ma'ahes** · March 04, 2008, 11:20 PM

The lessons from history are what matters, not necessarily the specific situations that arise, for the most part. So while colonialism may not be a particular issue anymore (for the most part, at least), the lessons about why it fails/works are what are important.

I'd have to say that the cycles of history refer mainly to the social, psycho, and economic cycles that drive the will of the people. How it gets manipulated is also of great importance, as he also see in history. However, one cannot make a clear connection between the past and the present for many issues, such as the US=Rome. Sure, certain aspects are similar/identical, but the major issues surrounding historical events require (to me, at least) the simultaneous timing of several cycles of factors.

.....that's just what I think, though....

**gaius valerius** · March 05, 2008, 08:38 AM

In history there are cycles that seem to repeat themselves. Ah common thing is the 'all great empires die' type of example. There is logic in all this. History will repeat itself but not exactly the same. What brought Hitler to power in 1933 wasn't a 1-time aberration in mankinds history. It could very well happen again, probably not exactly the same, but those evolutions could take place again, BUT on the other hand we've been through it before so history warns us of these things.

Of course, to learn from history, you need to KNOW history... the latter is the most problematic. Cyclic or lineair? Both have good arguments, as usual I opt for both. History is a lineair evolution with cyclic constant elements, meaning the same thing won't happen twice but that certain evolutions are natural and re-occur (hegemonic cycles for example: a leader will always, regardless of time and place, lead to the emergence of a contender)

**Bokks** · March 05, 2008, 10:50 AM

Ma'ahes and gaius valerius make excellent points here.
In such extention, I would have to say that completely discounting the past is an unwise decision, even when it comes to colonialism. Simply because it can not be done in the exact same fashion as before does not mean that it cannot happen at all again, and in an economic world it's possible that--to further the colonial point--that it can happen again in other, even stonger ways. The colonial era was not only a time of militaristic expansion but of economic superiority as well, in fact at the time there were many more economically founded colonies, those of the Portuguese, the Dutch and to a point the French, that were simply outmaneuvered by the military conquests of the Spanish and English. In todays society, though, it's possible that an economic powerhouse such as China could subvert and dominate another country because of lower economic potential, and do so with the blessings of that other country, and in fact that's the exact thing that has and is happening with corporations, the domination of Walmart (funny as it is) is eerily similar to colonies. Give that the capacity of expansion a country can command and you have a potential problem right there.

In broader terms, we are still the same people we were 200 years ago. therefore, while our morals and technological capacities may fluxuate continuously, the ways that we act and the things that we are capable of are the exact same. Discounting the past simply because it seems obsolete is an unwise decision, and may very well result in it happening again in a different and more disastrous way. The sheer strength of a military power is not as great as the potential for economic power as societies become more advanced, 200 years ago colonies established by the Dutch and Portuguese lost to stronger forces of England and Spain, but as the world becomes more connected the potential for an economically dominated society skyrockets.

In mathematical sense, the study of the past quantifies our actions so that we can better predict future ones, in a political sense it's always business as usual, and all it requires is a little reinventiveness.

**Pontifex Maximus** · March 07, 2008, 08:20 AM

The site is dedicated to games that are based on ancient and medieval history. It's gonna be hard to escape.

**Da Skinna** · March 07, 2008, 08:51 AM

My signature addresses this.

**Bokks** · March 07, 2008, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Da Skinna

My signature addresses this.

I agree, quite nicely too...

Mine looks to the futility of the future... wait... I changed it...

**Каие** · March 09, 2008, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by awisler

It seems to me that a lot of people bring up things that will occur or are beginning to occur because they are just slightly similar to something that happened in history. But can we really still point to history to spot cycles that will occur anymore?

For example the colonialism thread, China may have been able to colonize back in the day just like other nations had it been able to do so, but in todays world communication is so quick and times are just different that it would not happen.

In my head its clear but when I try to type it out it is hard to explain, but times have just changed SO much that I don't really think that we can reliably point to history very often anymore. Am I wrong in thinking this?

Those who forget History are doomed to repeat it. Simple as.

**Marku** · March 09, 2008, 03:14 PM

kb8 summed it up me thinks

**~~removeduser_426582376423734~~** · March 09, 2008, 03:19 PM

Anthropologists could save the world, if they wanted.

**Da Skinna** · March 09, 2008, 07:37 PM

The evils of history are damned to repeat themselves when the good men stand by and do nothing to learn from it.

**gaius valerius** · March 10, 2008, 09:30 AM

Let us wipe out the human race to prevent the further spreading of evil... then when the last humanoid has fallen amidst a pile of skulls and drenced in a sea of blood... we rejoice... drink from the skulls of the fallen... and kill ourselves.

Thus saving humanity... oh wait... aaargh damn

**Da Skinna** · March 11, 2008, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by gaius valerius

Let us wipe out the human race to prevent the further spreading of evil... then when the last humanoid has fallen amidst a pile of skulls and drenced in a sea of blood... we rejoice... drink from the skulls of the fallen... and kill ourselves.

Thus saving humanity... oh wait... aaargh damn

What was wrong with that plan?

I have an idea for a movie: it starts with a race of aliens living their lives in a utopic society, much like ours but more advanced, when suddenly they're attacked by alien ships, annhilating whole cities and seeming bent on their destruction. By the end of the movie, when we finally see what the aliens look like, it turns out they're human.

Like locusts we are, if we HAD the technology we would do just that. It wouldn't take long for us.

**Bokks** · March 12, 2008, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Da Skinna

I have an idea for a movie: it starts with a race of aliens living their lives in a utopic society, much like ours but more advanced, when suddenly they're attacked by alien ships, annhilating whole cities and seeming bent on their destruction. By the end of the movie, when we finally see what the aliens look like, it turns out they're human.

Interesting idea... kinda similar to a few "Goosebumps" episodes back in the day... but since when do we live in a Utopian society?

Originally Posted by Da Skinna

Like locusts we are, if we HAD the technology we would do just that. It wouldn't take long for us.

I'd say that a little pessimistic... but...

**Da Skinna** · March 12, 2008, 09:42 AM

Because history shows we are responsible.

**boofhead** · March 12, 2008, 09:57 AM

History does repeat. From a personal, micro perspective to the international, macro perspective. I've seen repetitions in my short life.

That's why things like Aesop's Fables and nursery rhymes will always have their place in humanity. Even religious tales. They are often wisdom, and yet it is not until someone has had a fall that the truth may hit them.

To follow past politics is useless. We are all making our own way in this life, and must learn our own lessons. But the fact is that our opinions are not truly ours. They have been thought before. Different words, different names, same shite, just a different guise, and thanks to the passing on of information (writing, recorded music, interweb etc) we can learn from certain mistakes before we make them. Anyone who thinks they can stop this is a fool.

That is why national and religious identities are important. The history is expressed through the elders, who are the same people who taught you to poo on the loo.

Do your best.

**Stalins Ghost** · March 12, 2008, 11:00 AM

Agreed. Pointing to the past is wrong, though learning from it is absolutely essentially. Only by understanding our foundations can we build and improve. History only repeats when we let it.