Moses & the Divine?!

[Exarch]

in yet another nail in the coffin of the judeo-christian religions, an israeli researcher has put forth the argument that Moses was......well, high:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - The biblical Israelites may have been high on a hallucinogenic plant when Moses brought the Ten Commandments down from Mount Sinai, according to a new study by an Israeli psychology professor.
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Writing in the British journal Time and Mind, Benny Shanon of Jerusalem's Hebrew University said two plants in the Sinai desert contain the same psychoactive molecules as those found in plants from which the powerful Amazonian hallucinogenic brew ayahuasca is prepared.

The thunder, lightning and blaring of a trumpet which the Book of Exodus says emanated from Mount Sinai could just have been the imaginings of a people in an "altered state of awareness," Shanon hypothesized.

"In advanced forms of ayahuasca inebriation, the seeing of light is accompanied by profound religious and spiritual feelings," Shanon wrote.

"On such occasions, one often feels that in seeing the light, one is encountering the ground of all Being ... many identify this power as God."

Shanon wrote that he was very familiar with the affects of the ayahuasca plant, having "partaken of the ... brew about 160 times in various locales and contexts."

He said one of the psychoactive plants, harmal, found in the Sinai and elsewhere in the Middle East, has long been regarded by Jews in the region as having magical and curative powers.

Some biblical scholars were unimpressed. Orthodox rabbi Yuval Sherlow told Israel Radio: "The Bible is trying to convey a very profound event. We have to fear not for the fate of the biblical Moses, but for the fate of science."

Source: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/0...s/odd_moses_dc

thus, jewish rituals and views predominant in the torah, and even a lot of christian and even islamic beliefs are simply the result of psychoactive hallucinations. an illusion. it's a lie. BS.

Discuss

[The Good]

Orthodox rabbi Yuval Sherlow told Israel Radio: "The Bible is trying to convey a very profound event. We have to fear not for the fate of the biblical Moses, but for the fate of science."

What the Rabbi said describes what I think. I don't believe Moses was "high," he was inspired divinely by God.

[Gaidin]

I don't believe Moses was "high," he was inspired divinely by God.

Talking fire bushes mean you're totally sober after all.

[Irishman]

While it is an interesting theory, and I would like nothing more for it to be true, it is very speculative.

Also, it is rather irrelevant because of the total lack of a massive Hebrew enslavement in Egypt and the total lack of any evidence of an exodus. It is already clear that the story in Exodus did not happen anywhere near as it is portrayed in the Bible.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

While it is an interesting theory, and I would like nothing more for it to be true, it is very speculative.

I definitely agree that this theory is pure speculation. There is no way one can prove this theory. It is an interesting theory.

[Seda]

I definitely agree that this theory is pure speculation. There is no way one can prove this theory. It is an interesting theory.

QFT. There is really no strong reason to believe that the Isrealites were high on anything at the time save personal belief. As said, interesting theory, but based on little more than complete speculation

[Exarch]

'burning bush', 'seeing music',
while we may not yet know enough about neuroscience and the pharmacology of hallucinations, we do know how easy it is for people to make something divine out of the ordinary. check out the thread on cargo crate religions for eg
Shanon himself in the article claims to have tried 160 decoctions of the variations on the ayahuasca, and said the experiences of 'seeing music', etc was almost constant in all his experiences.

and naturally, the biblical scholars'd be 'unimpressed'. their whole lives work would be exposed as the sham that it is.

[Seda]

That's all well and good, but you have no way to definitively prove that the Isrealites were high on this weed. If you wanna believe that's how it happened, that's your perogative, just don't expect someone who actually believes in miracles to be convinced.

[Exarch]

That's all well and good, but you have no way to definitively prove that the Isrealites were high on this weed. If you wanna believe that's how it happened, that's your perogative, just don't expect someone who actually believes in miracles to be convinced.

seda,
i can understand if you'd like to believe in miracles; i say 'like to' because i doubt if you've ever truly experienced a case of a talking burning bush, etc.
there's nothing wrong with wanting to believe; i, personally would like to believe unicorns and manticores exist, but AFAIK, they only exist in my head.
The difference between my 'unicorn belief' and your 'talking burning bush belief' is that i harbour a healthy amount of scepticism in regards to my 'unicorn belief', whereas i see nothing but blind unproven faith amongst people who believe in such 'miracles'.

and another thing, proving the ancient israelites were high on ayahuasca type plants is far easier to prove, than trying to prove that 'talking burning bushes' and other such biblical 'miracles' existed.

[Seda]

Perhaps, but only by virtue of the fact that you can find the the plant in the sinai area.

But, I'm not going to stay here and debate this with you. I do not posess the education to back up my beliefs, and I'm not going to try. So let us simply agree to disagree.

[Exarch]

Perhaps, but only by virtue of the fact that you can find the the plant in the sinai area.

But, I'm not going to stay here and debate this with you. I do not posess the education to back up my beliefs, and I'm not going to try. So let us simply agree to disagree.

agreed

[Maverick]

Interesting, if not a completely recycled hypothesis.

Anyways, the idea that psychoactive drugs have had a profound effect on humanity in general, not just on Jews or specific groups is very possible. Just the mere fact that our ancestors experienced an altered state must have provoked not only some of the most important questions ever asked, but also the fundamental realization that they should question. The idea that what we can percieve with our senses is not necessarily all there is to existence: skepticism, could very well be the bedrock for all subsequent faiths, societies, sciences etc. that snowballed from that first hungry, curious hominid whose existence suddenly became infinitely more complex and enigmatic, if in fact he had ever questioned it or anything else previously. Many of the earliest examples of cave art had religious or mystical motifs, maybe these psychadelic experiences were so unique, so different from everyday existence that a need arose out of them to express them and understand them--the first impetus for abstract thought and self-expression. Unfortunately the answer is buried deep in pre-history so we can only speculate but I think it's a question worth exploring.

[Sher Khan]

Who put the hallucinogens on the mountain in the first place?

God.


Think about it.

[roy34543]

I sort of doubt it.
There was more then a dozen people there most likely. And you dont usually hallucinate tablets that magically ask you to do good things to your fellow man. Your more likely to hallucinate a naked women or pretty lights or something.

[Exarch]

I sort of doubt it.
There was more then a dozen people there most likely. And you dont usually hallucinate tablets that magically ask you to do good things to your fellow man. Your more likely to hallucinate a naked women or pretty lights or something.

i kinda doubt the 10 commandments are 'good things (done) to your fellow man'....
on the other note, a lot of ppl on hallucinogens claim to be able to 'see music', indicating that there might be something common in whatever it is the hallucinogen is doing up there.

[Dayman]

This is just speculation. There is no evidence that there was even an exodus.

[NaptownKnight]

Where can I get this plant? I want to see talking fire brushes...

This is not solid evidence though, just speculation. But saying that there is no evidence of Exodus is being silly, there isn't much evidence of anything so far back.

[Dayman]

This is not solid evidence though, just speculation. But saying that there is no evidence of Exodus is being silly, there isn't much evidence of anything so far back.

Right, so there is no evidence of it. I know you believe in it Naptown, but it's not silly to say there is no evidence (especially since they "supposedly" left a culture which kept records and we would have heard something), when there is no evidence. I'm stating plain, not being silly.

[Gaidin]

This is not solid evidence though, just speculation. But saying that there is no evidence of Exodus is being silly, there isn't much evidence of anything so far back.

We have plenty of evidence of the Egyptian society of the time Exodus is said to have happened. That place was an archeologist's wet dream during the 19th and 20th centuries. Why, if we can find evidence of Egypt's society during that era, can we not find evidence of a mass exodus *from* Egypt during that era?

[roy34543]

Maybe they were embarrased that they had their whole army buried by a magical lake?