Crusades

**CK23** · March 04, 2008, 06:22 PM

Ok, this does totally ridiculous be we discussed it today in class, and I feel the urge to ask...

Can the Pope still call a Crusade?
And If not..
Why not?
and if So...
Who would answer, and what would be the pro's and con's?

Now, I don't mean to seem ignorant, but I really have been wondering. I mean aren't some Muslims on a Jihad to rid the world of Infidels? Don't bash, I just wanna know..

**Pontifex Maximus** · March 04, 2008, 06:52 PM

No. He doesnt have close to the same power he did in medieval Europe. The days of Papal supremacy dwindled in the Renaissance and by enlightenment, it was basically gone.

We will never have another crusade.

**iudas** · March 05, 2008, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by _Pontifex_

No. He doesnt have close to the same power he did in medieval Europe. The days of Papal supremacy dwindled in the Renaissance and by enlightenment, it was basically gone.

I believe that is a myth. There are much, much more devout catholics now than in the Medieval era. Technically, he has more "power" now. But the world has evolved and religious wars are not that common anymore.

**Dayman** · March 05, 2008, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by SirPaladin

I believe that is a myth. There are much, much more devout catholics now than in the Medieval era. Technically, he has more "power" now. But the world has evolved and religious wars are not that common anymore.

The Pope is no longer, a (powerful, or hell, even significant) temporal leader.

**AngryTitusPullo** · March 05, 2008, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by Boeing

The Pope is no longer, a (powerful, or hell, even significant) temporal leader.

If today's Pope suddenly decide to call on crusades I'm sure many Catholics will answer them, though no government will (except the Vatican of course).

**Dayman** · March 05, 2008, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by LestaT

If today's Pope suddenly decide to call on crusades I'm sure many Catholics will answer them, though no government will (except the Vatican of course).

And the pope would be condemned by all nations universally.

**johnny5000** · March 05, 2008, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by SirPaladin

I believe that is a myth. There are much, much more devout catholics now than in the Medieval era. Technically, he has more "power" now. But the world has evolved and religious wars are not that common anymore.

The entire system of the European monarchy was based on the blessing of the Pope. The Pope was essentially the king of all kings, and the power and legitimacy of every king stemmed from the Pope, who was God's representative on Earth. If you pissed-off the Pope, you no longer had God's blessing to rule, so you were about to be in a world of hurt.

The Pope doesn't have *that* kind of power anymore, since everyone has abandoned the idea of the divine right of kings.

**Fenix_120** · March 05, 2008, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by johnny5000

The entire system of the European monarchy was based on the blessing of the Pope. The Pope was essentially the king of all kings, and the power and legitimacy of every king stemmed from the Pope, who was God's representative on Earth. If you pissed-off the Pope, you no longer had God's blessing to rule, so you were about to be in a world of hurt.

The Pope doesn't have *that* kind of power anymore, since everyone has abandoned the idea of the divine right of kings.

Frederick Barbarosa and Henry the 8th did fine.

But as I said earlier, the Swiss to this day cannot declair war without the popes blessings.

**johnny5000** · March 05, 2008, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Fenix_120

Frederick Barbarosa and Henry the 8th did fine.

But as I said earlier, the Swiss to this day cannot declair war without the popes blessings.

The managed to survive, but they faced considerable upheaval because they went against the Pope.

These days, if the Pope says a world leader is full of crap, you don't have millions of angry Catholics rising up in rebellion, where in the old days you could.

**ThiudareiksGunthigg** · March 05, 2008, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by johnny5000

The entire system of the European monarchy was based on the blessing of the Pope. The Pope was essentially the king of all kings, and the power and legitimacy of every king stemmed from the Pope, who was God's representative on Earth. If you pissed-off the Pope, you no longer had God's blessing to rule, so you were about to be in a world of hurt.

Ummm, at the very height of the theoretical claims the Papacy tried to make about itself and its role in its struggle to free itself from the dominance of secular powers, that's what a few (very few) Popes tried to claim.

It never actually worked like that at all.

**Pontifex Maximus** · March 05, 2008, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by SirPaladin

I believe that is a myth. There are much, much more devout catholics now than in the Medieval era. Technically, he has more "power" now. But the world has evolved and religious wars are not that common anymore.

Can the Pope demand that a King pay tribute? No.
Can the Pope draw up border plans? No.

**roy34543** · March 04, 2008, 06:55 PM

Of course he can . The real crusade wasnt really much of a official drafting of soldiers. It was a call to arms for anyone willing to donate himself to the cause (and gain the popes favour, and they still have plenty of money today)
But noone is really zealous enough these days. And it would be a bit silly to ask all the european countries to break foreign relations for no reason except religion and the insignificant pope.
So yes. He probably could in the euphunistic sense, though its more like begging everyone to do whatever he wants . Its unlikely to work though.

**Pontifex Maximus** · March 04, 2008, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by roy34543

Of course he can . The real crusade wasnt really much of a official drafting of soldiers. It was a call to arms for anyone willing to donate himself to the cause (and gain the popes favour, and they still have plenty of money today)
But noone is really zealous enough these days. And it would be a bit silly to ask all the european countries to break foreign relations for no reason except religion and the insignificant pope.
So yes. He probably could in the euphunistic sense, though its more like begging everyone to do whatever he wants . Its unlikely to work though.

Like I said, he wields no power.

**Fenix_120** · March 04, 2008, 07:02 PM

I seem to remember reading somewhere that to this day the swiss army cannot go to war with out permission from the pope, if this is the case then the entire swiss army is still technically a "Crusader" Army.

Who would answer it?

The Swiss, some very zealous catholics, and anyone who could benefit one way or the other(for an example, America could use the extra troops in Iraq), the U.N. would condone it, but what are they going to do about it?
its not like if they have troops that can fight a Modern well trained army such as the Swiss.

But I do not think that a Crusade or a Jihad or what ever it is your people call it, is what the world needs right now.

**roy34543** · March 04, 2008, 07:12 PM

Basically speaking.
its like saying if 500 people go and murder 1000 because he said crusade he still wields no power.
He wields power but its really minimal. He can call a crusade but it would be an instant failiure and achieve nothing exept some people being killed and huge negative world reputation of christians everywhere.

**Pontifex Maximus** · March 04, 2008, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by roy34543

Basically speaking.
its like saying if 500 people go and murder 1000 because he said crusade he still wields no power.
He wields power but its really minimal. He can call a crusade but it would be an instant failiure and achieve nothing exept some people being killed and huge negative world reputation of christians everywhere.

Exactly.

**CK23** · March 04, 2008, 07:38 PM

Thanks, This is what I thought, just would result in deaths and Christians reputation go down the drain.

**The Good** · March 04, 2008, 08:09 PM

I'm not sure if Popes can call Crusades successfully in our modern era. Too many people, mostly secular, would oppose it. The Popes of the middle ages may have started crusades, but those wouldn't be approved by God. There could have been a better way to do it. Sending missionaries would have been a peaceful, and better alternative to the wars that were the Crusades.

**Seda** · March 04, 2008, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Lucius Julius

I'm not sure if Popes can call Crusades successfully in our modern era. Too many people, mostly secular, would oppose it. The Popes of the middle ages may have started crusades, but those wouldn't be approved by God. There could have been a better way to do it. Sending missionaries would have been a peaceful, and better alternative to the wars that were the Crusades.

That pretty much summed up my view. There would be no signifigant contributions to a crusade in the modern, secular world, and a pope stupid enough to try would either be laughed at or spark an international incident. It won't happen.

Originally Posted by Thanatos

Ah, but the question I desire to ask is, are we in the middle of a jihad?

That's an interesting question. From what little I know of some of the motives of muslim powers in the middle east, it is similar in some ways to the Jihads against the crusader states. I'm quite sure that no-one outside of terrorist or other extreme groups have publicly labeled it as such, though.