Your University Science Experience?

[H_man]

Well, seing as I'm only five semesters away from attending university, I've commenced the planning of what I would like to take when I arrive. I know many members here have and are taking science as part of their post-secondary schooling and I would really just like advice/stories on A)What to expect B)level of difficulty/adjusting from highschool C)why you've decided to take the program or are interested in particular fields. Also, I would like to know a bit about your experiences with getting into university, as this is what worries me the most.

Just a little background about myself; I'm one of those supposed "smart" kids in highschool that simply works hard with a slightly above average IQ and knowledge of the world(I have by no means obtained the level of intellectual competency exhibited by members of this board; last time I checked I had an IQ roughly in the 130s). My favourite subjects, by far are science and math, although I am equally proficcient in English, and Social Studies. My grades in Grade 9 for cores were as follows: Science 9: 100%, Social 9: 99%, English 9: 97%, and Math 9 96%. I also took my Math 10 last year and obtained 99%. This year, I have 97.5% in Science 10, 100% (tentative) Social 10, 92% English AP, and have 99% (tentative) Physics 20 (Grade 11), and 98.4% (tentative) in Mathematics 20. Although my grades dipped slightly from Jr. High to High School (new school, teachers, adjustments) my goal is to maintain and boost these averages as I move through school. Why am I telling you this? I simply require advice on what Universities I should look at, particularily if I'm looking for a double major in Liberal Arts, and Physics (eventually a Phd). I am most interested in the nature of the universe, and have read quite a large quantity of literature in the field of physics compared to the others (I enjoy the theory more than the stuff we do in class [kinematics, vectors, etc.) What kinds of extracuriculars should I get into (we have almost nothing as I live in a small city of 15000)/ what kinds of things impress universities most that will help get me noticed? I'm trying to get into a two week physics conference next year, as well as get involved in peer mentoring. I'm already in my 10th year of hockey, but seeing as I'm not an all-star, I doubt this would be university notable. What frustrates me the most is that nearly all university entrance books give advice for kids attending american/larger Canadian highschools where they have diverse extracurricular selection and AP subjects to choose from. How can I feasibly compete against kids with similar grades but superior academic programs? I'm really disheartened because all my programs, while mildly challenging, bore me after I get used to the teaching style and theories.

Anyway, seeing as I know almost no one with experience in science/university application (at the higher levels at least), I would like to know what you guys think/ have done. Do you enjoy university science? Is it what you expected? What advice do you have for a highschooler to read/join/do to get into better universities and with a headstart? Also, is it best to attend school in the States, or remain in Canada and get into McGill/other (I'm a dual-citizen ftw)?

Thanks for your help! I really appreciate it.

[Simetrical]

Honestly, I slacked off massively in high school, and got admitted to a public college based (I suppose) mainly on my SAT scores. I'm not terribly worried, because now I have a 3.97 GPA and have every intention of getting into a top-notch place like MIT for graduate school.

That aside, well, college science is basically the same as high school science, just taught at a more challenging level. The introductory courses seem to be mostly the same as the high school ones, just more rigorous and complete. If you've taken AP courses, they should be about the same as those, maybe even easier, although personally I can't compare. The more advanced courses are of course more difficult.

College itself is very different, of course. Hours are much more flexible and permissive, you're expected to do more work by yourself, and (at least at my high school, and my college) people are much more serious about schoolwork. The classes themselves are fairly similar, although usually twice a week and somewhat longer, rather than four or five times a week but shorter (which is what my high school had for most classes). Some classes have much less stuff you're graded on, though. In the sciences, grading on just midterm and final is common, although I hate it. Sometimes there are two midterms, or three, and sometimes things like attendance and homework are factored into the grade.

I went to a pretty weird high school, however (a yeshiva, with <100 people in grades 7–12), so my thoughts probably aren't so useful to you. I'm not sure if the Canadian university system is at all like the American one, either: I know the British system is dramatically different. So make of this what you will.

As for admissions to top-notch places, well, there are a ton of ridiculously-qualified people who are rejected from Ivies and similar, just for lack of room. I don't know that I'd rely on getting into one as an undergraduate unless I had pretty remarkable qualifications. But consequently, people don't expect you to get into Ivies. Just look for the best undergraduate colleges in your field and apply to all the ones you think you might realistically get into. You should get into at least one. Then you can take a big step up for grad school if you still do really well.

[H_man]

Yeah, thus far I've looked at the University of Alberta, McGill, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, Boston College, Stanford, Berkeley and others. What is really difficult is finding resources that rate certain schools in terms of specific courses or fields of research. While I by no means assume I could even make it into half of these on academics alone, I'm trying to find ways to at least help my chances. What makes me mad is that there are so many try hards in the world that don't possess even close to the intellect necessary for making it into these colleges. Some of the biggest bums I know also happen to be geniuses (one of my friends has an IQ of 170) but simply are so autrocious when it comes to the fields of linguistics they could never make it into the high-level elite mathematics/science programs. I really don't know what I want to do in college, as I like all the sciences, and maths equally. Physics interests me the most, but at this level I am strongest at verbal reasoning, as opposed to mathematical reasoning, and thus am stronger in subjects such as biology, even though I prefer physics (the theoretical stuff more than the mundane entry level fields). I can open up a biology 30 level book and comprehend the majority of the material, which cannot even remotely be said for physics, although once I learn it it becomes easy.

[Simetrical]

Well, you generally aren't expected to decide on a specialization until you declare your major, which you're typically required to do only in your second or third year of college (again, in the American system). If you aren't sure what to pick going into college, don't worry. You can switch from physics to biology or whatever after your two or three semesters, or even four: you'll just have spent some (most, all) of your free electives on physics courses. There will be some overlap in requirements anyway; all science majors probably need to take a year of physics and a year or two of calculus, for instance.

[ajm317]

I'm a 4th year graduate student studying Physics at the moment going for my PhD. I'm an American, so I don't know how things work in Canada, but I can tell you what the American experience is like.

All of what Simetrical said is true. One thing that I want to point out is, if you're planning on getting a PhD in Physics, don't worry too much about where you go as an undergrad. Nobody cares. The only thing they look at is where you went for grad school. Furthermore, it's extremely hard to get into the likes of Harvard or MIT as an undergraduate, but at the moment (well...at least 4 years ago when I went in) there's a shortage of English speaking graduate students in Physics, so it's much easier to get into those types of places going into grad school. Another thing you've got going for you is that when you go into grad school you'll be taking a standardized test called the GRE. Now the GRE is a bit like the SAT, and like the SAT has subject tests called the SAT II, the GRE also has subject tests. Going into grad school for Physics your GRE Physics subject test is a major factor in admissions. If you study hard for that test, and get good grades as an undergrad and get a good recommendation, you get get into someplace like MIT or Harvard coming from someplace like Michigan State.

Going into undergrad, you'll notice that the courses are harder than they were in highschool, (or at least, than they are in an American high school) especially if you're taking honors courses. That said, they're not SO hard, and it's probably not something you need to worry about. Things start to get considerably harder when you get into your junior year or so. Like Simetrical said, you don't have to make any decisions now. At my university we weren't even permitted to declare a major until our junior year, and for your first 2 years you're mostly taking general education stuff anyway.

If you simply must go someplace like Harvard or Yale as an undergrad, you need to start preparing now. Everyone who applies there has 4.0 averages, 1400+ SAT's, etc. What distinguishes you is extracuriculars. Peer mentoring would be good. Especially put an emphasis on anything that can be construed as a "leadership experience." Admissions guys are big on that. (By the way exactly the opposite of all this is true when you apply to grad school. I was told that if I did have extracurriculars not to mention them. It would lead the admissions people to wonder how committed I was to Physics.) Again though, all this isn't really necessary to get into a school that's just good and not great, and that's all you really need if you plan to go to grad school anyway.

EDIT: If, however, you eventually decide you DON'T want to go to grad school (a distinct possibility statistically speaking), then obviously a more prestigious university degree would be a nice thing to fall back on.

[chriscase]

My sister went to McGill and loved it.

I'm not sure I would get too worked up about graduate school just yet. To quote John Lennon, life is what happens to you while you're making other plans.

I studied quite a few subjects the first couple of years at college - western studies, anthropology, music, english, math, and physics. I buckled down at UCB and got a math degree there.

If you want to study math at someplace like Berkeley, the big shift is from lower division math like calculus to upper division math like abstract algebra, analysis, and topology. If you want to prepare for that, you can start looking at transitional texts that teach mathematical reasoning and methods of proof.

There is a similar learning curve for physics, but I don't have any advice for you there.

In the lower division, I wouldn't skimp on the classics. If you haven't done some in-depth survey of western civilization by the time to get your bachelor's degree, I think you will have missed out.

[H_man]

Thanks for the advice guys. University seems slightly less intimidating now, although it still makes me feel unsettled. Upon researching into some of the Ivy league schools, I've found Harvard would allow me to study there for free, given my financial conditions, but I highly doubt I could make it into a school such as that short of being elected highschool student of the year. Would there be any advantage to studying as an undergrad at a school that allows high-end graduate studies? If not, I could always just go to some much smaller, less expensive universities close to home to do studies, although it may not be quite the experience as studying in the US. I do have a US citizenship, so that may make things easier/harder in addition to speaking French (one of the reasons I wish to attend McGill is to learn it outside the classroom, where I've studied it for the past 7 years). My goal right now is to make it into a place like Yale, or Harvard, simply to have something to work for in Highschool, and make the cost of college that much less. What else to these places like to see from highly-academic oriented students? I'm really confused because where I'm from, there's hardly any exciting extracuriculars (Canadian rural highschool system is completely different) around.

[chriscase]

Some universities have high school outreach programs that try to attract talented prospective students. I know UCB has one. You might look into whether you qualify for one of those, but I suspect you may need to be local.

I, myself, would not spend too much time trying to figure out how to "work" the admissions process. Get good grades and test scores. Write a good essay. Do whatever extracurricular activities you like. Beyond that, I think you are needlessly stressing yourself, and for little if any benefit. If you want to, call the admissions offices of your favorite schools and ask them what you can do to increase your chances of admission.

If you need something to keep you busy in high school, focus on the academic material itself. If you can figure out what kind of upper division material you will enjoy and do well, you will be way ahead of the game.

I definitely appreciated my time at UCB. I took several courses there that I have never seen in any small, liberal arts school catalogs: differential geometry, algebraic topology, and galois theory (which is basically advanced abstract algebra). Having that exposure as an undergrad was great, and I doubt I could have gotten that anywhere other than a big school like UCB.

[H_man]

It's not that I myself am stressed out- I'm actually fairly laid back, it's just when I look at what everyone else seems to be doing (constantly busy), I feel like I'm somehow missing something or am wasting time. Personally, I dislike extracurriculars because they seem so sycophantic. Up until this point, I've just enjoyed hanging out with friends, doing my homework well, and playing my heart out in hockey. I guess I simply ask because of the competitive nature of it all making it seems chimerical for an individual such as myself to receive acceptance. It does seem like needless worry, but I'm quite distraught how everyone at this point is "zomg! U ned eextarchallihculars 2 g3t 1n!!! OMGRBKBBQ!", and from talking to you I've received assurance that I'm not going into high school doing the wrong things.

[Simetrical]

Would there be any advantage to studying as an undergrad at a school that allows high-end graduate studies? If not, I could always just go to some much smaller, less expensive universities close to home to do studies, although it may not be quite the experience as studying in the US.

I know that I benefit greatly from my college's masters program. Half the math courses I take now are graduate-level, other than the independent studies. (I'm not allowed to take courses in the doctoral program, unfortunately, even if they cover the same material.) This is going to be very different for different disciplines, probably, but I'd imagine it would be similar for most of the sciences. If you have a graduate program and allow qualified undergrads to take intro graduate courses, you're going to be able to have more students for advanced courses and so a greater number of advanced courses available.

I definitely appreciated my time at UCB. I took several courses there that I have never seen in any small, liberal arts school catalogs: differential geometry, algebraic topology, and galois theory (which is basically advanced abstract algebra). Having that exposure as an undergrad was great, and I doubt I could have gotten that anywhere other than a big school like UCB.

UCB is what, Berkeley? (There's apparently also the University of Colorado at Boulder and the University College Birmingham.) They have a superb math program, one of the top math doctorates in the country, up there with MIT and Harvard. Sadly, my college (CCNY*― now that's an unambiguous acronym!) can't usually offer courses as advanced as algebraic topology or Galois theory. They had graduate algebraic topology offered this term (I hadn't taken point-set topology, so I didn't qualify), but it got canceled due to lack of registration, along with real analysis II. I'm told the same generally applies to Galois theory when it's offered.

I did read up on some basic Galois theory myself, and am now doing an independent study on advanced group theory, so it's not like it's a total loss. I'm taking (graduate) introductory set theory this term, too, which is fun, and doing an independent study on model theory. Plus thermodynamics, for my token non-math course (for my physics minor).

[chriscase]

UCB is what, Berkeley?

Yes.

I did read up on some basic Galois theory myself, and am now doing an independent study on advanced group theory, so it's not like it's a total loss.

Have you looked at applications at all? I understand physical chemistry uses group theory pretty extensively.

I'm taking (graduate) introductory set theory this term, too, which is fun, and doing an independent study on model theory. Plus thermodynamics, for my token non-math course (for my physics minor).

Which set theory book are you using?
Statistical mechanics kicked my butt. I liked it, but had to drop.

[Simetrical]

Have you looked at applications at all? I understand physical chemistry uses group theory pretty extensively.

Nah. I read most of a paper on algebraic cryptography a while back that one of my professors published, and understood most of it, but the parts I understood were the cryptography, not the group theory. I'm seeing some fun random applications now and then, though, mostly in computer science: like it turns out CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Check, a common error-checking code) works by taking remainders of polynomials over Z₂. I've also heard group theory is important in theoretical physics, but that seems to be a type of group I've never studied. Currently I'm doing infinite abelian groups. Haven't heard that it's used in physical chemistry, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Which set theory book are you using?

Hrbacek, presumably since he's a professor at my college. We use Bak for complex analysis for the same reason (although I haven't taken that, didn't have the prerequisites when it was last offered).

Statistical mechanics kicked my butt. I liked it, but had to drop.

Well, I guess I won't see if I have to drop until after the first test, this Wednesday, which I suppose is like half the grade for the course. I hate courses with fewer than three midterms, unless maybe they give sample tests (which way too few professors do).

I'm not too worried, since the worst grades I've gotten in math or physics so far are two A's in Advanced Calculus. And I'm pretty sure those were because the professor was really stingy with A+'s, or something, like to fight against grade inflation. There were six people who got up to the final for Advanced Calculus II, I was acquainted with all of them, and I'm 90% certain I got the best grade in the class for the course. There was one person I thought might have done better, depending on which of us made more careless mistakes, but he told me his grades and I know I did better. (It's pretty silly to brood about this, since both are a 4.0 for your GPA, but it was kind of annoying anyway.)

[Gary88]

the first year of Uni in the UK for me was like the last two years of Mathematics and Science condensed into 12 weeks, whilst continually adding more and more.

basically you couldn't slack of and expect the course to stay with you, it moves at the pace of the Lecturer and if you fall behind its your responsibility. also don't forget that a lecture is a very different environment from a classroom in school, certainly in the UK. when you have 100 (on my course) people in a room you can't stop the lecturer to ask questions unless you want the other 99 people to hate you.

having said that University is a brilliant place to be especially in science where you can learn so really truly astonishing things and have a wonderful time learning, even though i left university i can say wthout a doubt that my learning experience was wonderful and i recomend it.