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Thread: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

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  1. #1

    Default Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    My in-laws stopped by over the weekend on their way home from visiting some distant relatives in Kansas. Those distant relatives have been living quite well as of late and when my mother-in-law asked how, they explained that, as farmers, the government was helping them out. Curious, she did some research on the USDA's website and found that her relatives were pulling in more than $250K per annum in agricultural subsidies. For any non-Midwesterners reading this, agricultural subsidies are paid by the federal government to farmers for not growing their crops. By letting their fields lie fallow, overall supply of agricultural products drops, resulting in higher market prices and higher income for farmers. Turns out those distant relatives have been using those subsidies to purchase more land which they then use to pull in more subsidies.

    Today I got out of class and pulled up the day's financial news. The main headline starkly announced that wholesale inflation is rising at a rate not seen since the days of stagflation in the '70s. One section of this article in particular caught my eye:

    "The whole ethanol craze is behind a lot of the food inflation in the sense that it's driven up corn prices and increased the demand for crop space because people want to grow crops to make ethanol," [chief economist at RBS Greenwich Capital] said."
    Most economists tend to agree that rising feed prices are responsible for much of the increase in food prices over the past year, which in turn spurs on wholesale inflation. So, as the source above mentions, ethanol is in large part responsible for the recent rise in inflation. That's when it struck me: we're running out of room to grow corn feed (which is also the primary ingredient in most ethanol operations), yet my in-law's distant relatives are making a fortune from the government in exchange for not growing any crops.

    That being said, one family could just be an anomaly. So I dug further. According to the USDA's 2006 budget report, nearly $3 billion was spent that year in direct price supports for corn feed. Thrown in other crops and that number increases to $8 billion. And, most disturbingly, another $200 million a year is being paid to non-farmer landowners for not growing crops on their land. All of those numbers will be higher in the 2008 report given the large increases in crop prices over the past two years. So here we are, stuck in a twisted cycle: the federal government artificially props up crop prices both in the form of direct price supports and direct payments for not farming, increasing inflation. At the same time, the federal government is spending billions to encourage ethanol production, forcing crop prices up even more. Ethanol producers are being paid to use more crops while farmers are being paid to produce fewer crops. In the end, the result is essentially a double tax on the American taxpayer. You have your standard income tax, the proceeds of which are being used to drive up crop prices, forcing American consumers to pay more for just about all of their goods.

    Sadly, that's not the worst of it. If all of the subsidies were going to poor, down-on-their-luck farmers, at least we could right this off as another form of misguided welfare. According to the Washington Post, much of this funding is going to wealthy landowners. While the evidence here is anecdotal, my in-law's relatives report that wealthy Chinese and Arabian investors are attempting to purchase land in Kansas wholesale. So not only are we paying large farming corporations to not grow crops, we're paying foreign farming corporations for the same purpose.

    Now, aren't you glad to see your tax dollars put to use?
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    There is no more satisfying feeling than the one you have when you realize you have to pay for the bullets used at your own execution.

  3. #3
    Dunecat's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    There's alot more than just subsidies behind this.

    Part of the problem is seeing CORN as a means for ethanol. As a fellow midwesterner I know the controversy , but honestly I think that (like much of American welfare) the aid and manipulation goes to the wrong farms.

    Honestly I hear more mumbling about NAFTA more than the subsidies where I'm at though (eastern rural Ohio/Pennsylvania).

  4. #4
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    Yes its stupid we shouldn't be subsidizing Ethanol we should be subsidizing research into hydrogen fuel cells, although be thankful were not a guilded age economy.
    according to exarch I am like
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    El Brujo's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    although be thankful were not a guilded age economy.
    What exactly is a "guilded age economy"?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    Yes its stupid we shouldn't be subsidizing Ethanol we should be subsidizing research into hydrogen fuel cells, although be thankful were not a guilded age economy.
    We should be pumping our own gas too.

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    Ramashan's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    I've heard a little bit about this but did not realize how big it was and how much people are taking advantage of it.

    With food costs rising, and demand for more energy needs met from organics which in turn will affect the costs of other products made with the same organics, I say its time to rethink those subsidies and force farmers to start farming.

    As for foreign investors coming in and buying the land, I see that as part of the number one issue with the american economy today. Most of our money is going out and very little is being recirculated within the country. I always get angry when I hear about these wealthy boomers who decide to retire in Guatemla or some other foreign country. They are basiccally then taking all the social security and pension money and giving it to a foreign economy.

    But getting back to post, if the issue is as wide spread as you make it out, I would think that by cutting back on the subsidies we would see a market affect on prices after say two years if more land is being farmed as more energy efficient equipment comes onto the market.
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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    Guilded age aka no government intervention dog eat dog market failures every 5 years.
    according to exarch I am like
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    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

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    El Brujo's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    Guilded age aka no government intervention dog eat dog market failures every 5 years.
    There was plenty of government intervention during the Gilded Age, such as railroad subsidies, populist legislation in some Southern states, protectionism, etc. In addition, if you look at the Credit Mobilier and Whiskey Ring scandals, among others, it becomes apparent the government was no better than the capitalists they were supposed to restrain.

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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    Guilded age aka no government intervention dog eat dog market failures every 5 years.
    "market failures every 5 years"? Are you joking me? What kind of sensationist claim is that? The Great Depression, the staglflation, the 80s depression, the 2000 bubble, were the worst economic crises in American history, even if you take into account the recessions in 19th century. There's a reason why only a few happened, the word depression is used only once during this "unbridled" period, and why our government-funded depression is called "Great". It's not an accident, and you should read less more sensationalist statist literature which claims that government intervention was the best thing since sliced bread. I cornered an economist PhD recently, who claimed Fed was government's gift to the world, and was forced to admit it has actually done far more terrible things to the American economy than would be outweighed by the good. Read the Constitution. All these interventions aren't merely terrible for the country, they're unconstitutional.


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    -Samuel Adams

  11. #11

    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    Part of the problem is seeing CORN as a means for ethanol. As a fellow midwesterner I know the controversy , but honestly I think that (like much of American welfare) the aid and manipulation goes to the wrong farms.

    Honestly I hear more mumbling about NAFTA more than the subsidies where I'm at though (eastern rural Ohio/Pennsylvania).
    You're not a midwesterner...sorry.

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    Dunecat's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ó Cathasaigh View Post
    You're not a midwesterner...sorry.


    Alllllllritey then.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    You mentioned that foreigners are "attempting" to purchase large tracts of land....have they been successful? I mean personally, would it matter if we wind up not providing subsidies to those new farmers, driving them out of business in the end? Also, it's not like China could simply up and bring the land to them, and we could pretty easily cut off the food supply if they ever pissed us off too much.
    "...most cases of death were mild to moderate..."

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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    Railroad subsidies? What about the fact that corperations were allowed to exploit there workers and the government enforced the corperations right to have those employees pay their dues?
    according to exarch I am like
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    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

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    El Brujo's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    You mentioned that foreigners are "attempting" to purchase large tracts of land....have they been successful?
    Cintra(A Spanish company) has been pretty successful in Texas thus far, but they aren't going to be using it for farm subsidies.

    Railroad subsidies?
    Yes, railroad subsidies. The government covered some of the cost of building railroads in order to reduce the risk of financial ruin for the capitalist of the railroad failed. The idea being that reduced risk meant more railroads being built.

    What about the fact that corperations were allowed to exploit there workers and the government enforced the corperations right to have those employees pay their dues?
    So not only did the government intervene, but it did so for the express purpose of squashing the little guy and helping big business. So much for benevolent government, eh?

  16. #16
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    No the railroads got them freom the goverment that was more the result of coruption.

    THe little guy being the employee who rebelled against the corperations who were treating him like crap. In truth the Government was obligated to help them.

    Oh and yes there was protectionism, however would you argue that protectionism is needed now?
    according to exarch I am like
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    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  17. #17
    El Brujo's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    No the railroads got them freom the goverment that was more the result of coruption.
    It was official policy, but yes, there was a great deal of corruption as well. Credit Mobilier, for example.

    THe little guy being the employee who rebelled against the corperations who were treating him like crap. In truth the Government was obligated to help them.
    But it didn't. It went out of its way to keep the workers in their place, all in the interest of big business. Government intervention in this case was bad for workers.

    Oh and yes there was protectionism, however would you argue that protectionism is needed now?
    That's neither here nor there. I'm just saying they had it.

  18. #18
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    Well lets see here
    we got the

    # Black Friday - September 24, 1869
    # Der Krach - May 9, 1873, initiated the Long Depression in the United States and much of Europe
    # Paris Bourse crash of 1882
    # Panic of 1884
    # Panic of 1896
    # Panic of 1901
    # Panic of 1907
    That ring any bells?
    according to exarch I am like
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    Well lets see here
    we got the

    # Black Friday - September 24, 1869
    # Der Krach - May 9, 1873, initiated the Long Depression in the United States and much of Europe
    # Paris Bourse crash of 1882
    # Panic of 1884
    # Panic of 1896
    # Panic of 1901
    # Panic of 1907
    That ring any bells?
    I see you've quoted it directly from wikipedia. But you don't seem to have bothered with looking at the articles. The only real depression of them was "Der Krach" in 1873.
    There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe.

  20. #20
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Mixed economics killing the US economy...again.

    However it was not subsidies.


    But those workers were inerfering with the companies they were on the companies property wen't they?

    However to say one is a libertarian then complain about foreign interests....
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

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