Eugenics - The only way forward?

[Ruin]

Lets face it, humanity is drawing close to deadlock. We have no natural selection pressures, and sexual selection only means that the extremes of society will continue to exist, as the ugly breed with ugly, and beautiful with beautiful.

This state of lack of advance is inevitable (there is refutation of this in the form of those who believe human evolution is accelerating, but I do not place much trust in them). The idea of "regression to mean" is misleading, we will not in fact regress to mean but become increacingly diverse, with all strains in fact surviving. Sadly, intellect does not feature as stongly as looks in sexual selection, so we are unlikely to advance mentally.

Eugenics is a tainted work, tainted by Nazi Germany who used it as an excuse for genocide, deciding that rather then coding for the best, they should remove the worst. This is not in fact what Eugenics plans for, though it is a facet of it. The Germans took the step too far in extermination, but forced sterilisation was not a poor move. People such as those with huntington's disease are likely to pass on their serious disability, and this is in fact one of the only ways to catch the disease, the mutation associated with it being quite unlikely. Such things can be removed by removing the genetic stock of those who have such genetic ailments and deficiencies.

Also there is the prospect of genetic engineering and designer babies, not around in the time of Nazi Aryan fixation. This is the idea that babie's genes could be altered to fit the specification of the adults who may afford such procedures. It sounds otherworldly, but we are only a few decades from such things being possible, we already completely recode the DNA of several species of animals to our specifications, either for production or experimentation.

Is this idea all bad? Would not such decisions code for stronger, healthier, more intelligent and more passive individuals? Ones with greater willpower and energy? Is this such a bad thing?

Of couse, the misguided religious will stop and claim we are acting God. And damn well we should, he made a great big **** up of us the first time he made up, now we have a chance to put his mistakes right.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

You either know the history of eugenics, who champions it, what those champions end aims are, if such is the case, you are to be condemned.
If you are unaware of the above, then you are misguided.

[Yorkshireman]

You either know the history of eugenics, who champions it, what those champions end aims are, if such is the case, you are to be condemned.
If you are unaware of the above, then you are misguided.

Was'nt it that mob led by the funny little man with the silly moustache?

[Captain Arrrgh!]

Rep for you when my limit max comes down again, you smarty-arsed giant!

[Ruin]

You either know the history of eugenics, who champions it, what those champions end aims are, if such is the case, you are to be condemned.
If you are unaware of the above, then you are misguided

I know the history of Eugenics and how it was used, and I don't care. I am speaking of the principle, not how it was used in the past. Look to places like Canada for an example of how eugenics was almost implemented successfully (Cananda's problem being it selected in terms of a faulty IQ test, which selected against non-english people)

[Captain Arrrgh!]

Not faulty, Ruin. Deliberate. This is the key of eugenics, as put forth and now maintained by the social elite. It is inheirently evil, and involves the destruction of large segments of humanity. It is being carried out now, and has been poked onto the public for many decades, gauging their reaction, through media, mainstream education, and the like. The nazi's were just a part (and very small part, believe it or not) of the eugenics ideal, though it should be noted that many were ported over to the west under operation paperclip, such as Werner Von Braun and Mengele.

[Ruin]

Not faulty, Ruin. Deliberate. This is the key of eugenics, as put forth and now maintained by the social elite. It is inheirently evil, and involves the destruction of large segments of humanity.

No no no no no
The amound of assumptions, preconceptions and conspiracies you involve in these things almost makes it worthless debating, as you seem out of touch with simple reality, surrounding yourself with complex conspiracies. Eugenics is selection for the elite, not against the lower humans, as practiced by the Nazis.

It is being carried out now, and has been poked onto the public for many decades, gauging their reaction, through media, mainstream education, and the like.

Prove it

The nazi's were just a part (and very small part, believe it or not) of the eugenics ideal, though it should be noted that many were ported over to the west under operation paperclip, such as Werner Von Braun and Mengele.

And Winston Chirchill... Eugenics isn't just the Nazis. The Nazis were the extreme edge of it, practicing genocide under the guise of eugenics to cover their mistakes. Eugenics is not genocide.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

No no no no no
The amound of assumptions, preconceptions and conspiracies you involve in these things almost makes it worthless debating, as you seem out of touch with simple reality, surrounding yourself with complex conspiracies. Eugenics is selection for the elite, not against the lower humans, as practiced by the Nazis.

Stay on topic and do not insult. I know you can do it.

Prove it

No. Research it.

And Winston Chirchill... Eugenics isn't just the Nazis. The Nazis were the extreme edge of it, practicing genocide under the guise of eugenics to cover their mistakes. Eugenics is not genocide.

Are you calling me churchill? Research churchill more. You should loose your excitement for the nazis. I've already told you they've only played a very minor role.

[Ruin]

Stay on topic and do not insult. I know you can do it.

How can I? It is impossible to debate with you

No. Research it.

Why should I? You are attacking my point, not vice versa

Are you calling me churchill? Research churchill more. You should loose your excitement for the nazis. I've already told you they've only played a very minor role

Yet you are shrouding all Eugenics with the same methods the Nazis used, there is nothing evil about eugenics. People are not the same, and eugenics is the epitomy of this difference.

[Da Skinna]

When people can actually start choosing who would be more ideal, I think we've hit a slippery slope. Where does it stop? It will inevitably keep going, because we just don't learn from anything, so I can picture a future Holocaust pretty easily stemming from this.

[Dayman]

Don't kill living people it's a great way to avoid what the Nazi's did. Altering the genetics of the embryo won't hurt.

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

Altering the genetics of the embryo won't hurt.

Or will it ??
That's the problem which was dicussed in the previous eugenics thread(which the OP could have posted in instead of creating a new thread on the exact same subject)
Start messing with the genes on a fetus in the womb might create a bigger disavantage then advantage not to mention that humans are too stupid to use it properly.

[Medicus]

Lets face it, humanity is drawing close to deadlock. We have no natural selection pressures, and sexual selection only means that the extremes of society will continue to exist, as the ugly breed with ugly, and beautiful with beautiful.

Ruin, what the ****? Seems to me you're main concern is that you were born ugly, and don't the popular girls in school don't want to **** you.

And you're here talking about altering your species. What do you suggest we do? Kill all the uglies, and let the glorious Hollywood race rule over the useless average-looking peasants?

Don't kill living people it's a great way to avoid what the Nazi's did. Altering the genetics of the embryo won't hurt.

Boeing's absolutely right. IMO, altering the DNA of an embryo, to prevent against, say, cancer, is only a good thing. When you start specifying eye colour - well, then the waters get a little murky. It'll probably come down to money, as usual.

I think people need to get over themselves and their bloated (and false) sense of dignity and freedom. God did not make us in his image. No god made us, we developed and we will die out, according to nature's whims, but we can ensure that we last a little longer by embracing eugenics to make us more powerful and adaptable. The longer we cling to this rediculous notion that humans are special and that we should only be produced through purely natural means, the shorter our lifespan as a species will be. Every animal on this planet uses its evolutionary gifts to survive, and the human evolutionary gift is intelligence, yet too many are willing to stunt the growth of this gift and cling to superstition and outdated notions like faith, free-will, and dignity.

We should all embrace the advantages of being human, one of which being that we are intelligent enough to create concepts like eugenics then even develop the technology to make it a reality. I feel bad for people that refuse to accept science because it threatens their delusional sense of freedom and dignity. These people are like a plague upon our species and hopefully will die out, leaving those who actually embrace our evolutionary gifts to survive and flourish.

HopliteElite, I'm going to toss you into the rainforest with no gear and see if you can get out alive.

Without morals, religious or not, what are we other than reproducing machines?

[Gaidin]

Boeing's absolutely right. IMO, altering the DNA of an embryo, to prevent against, say, cancer, is only a good thing. When you start specifying eye colour - well, then the waters get a little murky. It'll probably come down to money, as usual.

The waters of this kind of operation are only as murky as the waters of a plastic surgery operation for burn injuries vs one to make a fugly woman look hawt.

One can be regarded as a necessity, the other a cosmetic. There's no real murkiness to the situation of modifying the genetics to get the eye color you want. This is, of course, assuming we know how to do this reliably.

[Wicked]

The waters of this kind of operation are only as murky as the waters of a plastic surgery operation for burn injuries vs one to make a fugly woman look hawt.

One can be regarded as a necessity, the other a cosmetic. There's no real murkiness to the situation of modifying the genetics to get the eye color you want. This is, of course, assuming we know how to do this reliably.

You lessen the force of evolution even more by selecting for such superficial traits, I would argue against any sort of genetic alteration on those grounds, whether to prevent an inheritable disease or accentuate a desired trait, evolution seems to have worked quite well for us before, considering that it has allowed us to produce people that are able to change our own genetic structure, or for that matter even know it exists.

Meh, I'm old fashioned, I'm not a fan of cosmetic surgery either, except to correct birth defects or injuries...knowing someone has done so without a valid medical reason actually lowers their attractiveness to me, significantly.

-Wicked

[Gaidin]

Meh, I'm old fashioned, I'm not a fan of cosmetic surgery either, except to correct birth defects or injuries...knowing someone has done so without a valid medical reason actually lowers their attractiveness to me, significantly.

-Wicked

You do realize that cosmetic surgery to correct birth defects is just about the same worth of genetically choosing eye color?

[Ruin]

When people can actually start choosing who would be more ideal, I think we've hit a slippery slope. Where does it stop? It will inevitably keep going, because we just don't learn from anything, so I can picture a future Holocaust pretty easily stemming from this.

There is a difference between choosing people over one another and killing all people you fidn inferior, a big difference. I'm sure no one would even remember the Nazis as evil if they had kept the sterilisation and the death camps and holocaust had never occured.

Don't kill living people it's a great way to avoid what the Nazi's did. Altering the genetics of the embryo won't hurt.

Bingo. I'm currently studying genetics, sadly the news presented in the course is as it was written in 2000. Even then this kind of thing was far from difficult or dangerous. Now I wouldn't doubt it's a near-perfect procedure.

[gaius valerius]

Is this idea all bad? Would not such decisions code for stronger, healthier, more intelligent and more passive individuals? Ones with greater willpower and energy? Is this such a bad thing?

To me this still sounds like some 'übermensch' (in the nazi, not the Nietzshe sense) crap...

It is just that you cannot decide who's got the right to make such a choice. It all seems very rational and logical but on a moral level, how can you defend this?

Like it has been said: if you prohibited ppl with hereditary/genetic diseases/handicaps to reproduce (by for example forced sterilisation ) then you could wipe out all these conditions within 2-3 generations (not including that these things could reappear on their own but thats another issue). I doubt however ppl have the moral right, or as for that matter any right to deny someone to reproduce on such basis.

Also, ppl with glasses what shall we do with them? They are inferior to us -eyes. The 4-eyed (just kidding ppl of 4-eyed race amongst us 2-eyers)creature would have a lower percentage of survival in the wild and is thus evolutionary not fit to survive, yet humans by inventing glasses and such have incorporated the 4-eyed race into our human society. What do we do about the 4-eyed race? Bad sight can be hereditary, do we forbid them to reproduce themselves? How far does perfection need to go? Being that my gf has bad sight herself I'm opposed to this

[Ruin]

To me this still sounds like some 'übermensch' (in the nazi, not the Nietzshe sense) crap...

It's exactly that attitude I have condemned above. Nazisim is taking things too far, and has tainted the word Eugenics.

It is just that you cannot decide who's got the right to make such a choice. It all seems very rational and logical but on a moral level, how can you defend this?

Yes you can, just like you can decide who has the right to declare war and dedicate lives, who decides who gets medical treatment etc. That is the virtue of voting.

Like it has been said: if you prohibited ppl with hereditary/genetic diseases/handicaps to reproduce (by for example forced sterilisation ) then you could wipe out all these conditions within 2-3 generations (not including that these things could reappear on their own but thats another issue). I doubt however ppl have the moral right, or as for that matter any right to deny someone to reproduce on such basis.

Why not? They can always adopt like any other sterile individual.

Also, ppl with glasses what shall we do with them? They are inferior to us -eyes. The 4-eyed (just kidding ppl of 4-eyed race amongst us 2-eyers)creature would have a lower percentage of survival in the wild and is thus evolutionary not fit to survive, yet humans by inventing glasses and such have incorporated the 4-eyed race into our human society. What do we do about the 4-eyed race? Bad sight can be hereditary, do we forbid them to reproduce themselves? How far does perfection need to go? Being that my gf has bad sight herself I'm opposed to this

There is a big difference between having bad sight, which is curable (amongst others, laser eye surgery, which is increasingly cheap), and Huntington's disease, and cystic fibrosis, which are life threatening and incurable (thankfully males with cystic fibrosis are already sterile).

[HopliteElite]

I think people need to get over themselves and their bloated (and false) sense of dignity and freedom. God did not make us in his image. No god made us, we developed and we will die out, according to nature's whims, but we can ensure that we last a little longer by embracing eugenics to make us more powerful and adaptable. The longer we cling to this rediculous notion that humans are special and that we should only be produced through purely natural means, the shorter our lifespan as a species will be. Every animal on this planet uses its evolutionary gifts to survive, and the human evolutionary gift is intelligence, yet too many are willing to stunt the growth of this gift and cling to superstition and outdated notions like faith, free-will, and dignity.

We should all embrace the advantages of being human, one of which being that we are intelligent enough to create concepts like eugenics then even develop the technology to make it a reality. I feel bad for people that refuse to accept science because it threatens their delusional sense of freedom and dignity. These people are like a plague upon our species and hopefully will die out, leaving those who actually embrace our evolutionary gifts to survive and flourish.