Africa CRIES for Colonialist care-takers!

[Tajir]

Before colonialism, Africa was many centuries behind the West in terms of industrialism. But later into the 20th century, colonial powers reduced the gap to a century and in some cases just decades. But just when some countries were really going forth with the mission of catching up, the fear of "Masta's Whip" faded away and Africans went back to their usual hack-me-up chores and completely pushed back any advancement made under colonialism.

Just an example, this is Mogadishu right after the nice Italians left.

And this is what happened shortly after the Italian departure (31 years forward).

[wilpuri]

Moar crying plz.

[VALIS]

Britain calls dibs.

[gaius valerius]

This is totally ignoring the basic causes that lay on the very foundation of the post-kolonial problems. Fair enough, they decolonisation happened to fast, but that is not the whole picture. It is your so-called European missionaries who lifted the continent out of its backwardness that created the foundations of the whole mess. It were imperialist nations that carved up Africa in the nations we now know. Tell me, have you ever seen a nation with borders like most African (and for that matter ME) countries? They take no ethnic divisions into account. And so we arrive at the next issue: ethnics. The ethnic divisions which you so nicely call the root of pre-colonial conflicts were never so apparent as they are today. Situations like in Kenia or in Rwanda weren't possible without European colonisation. WE labeled them into ethnicities (for example it were European overlords that created the difference between Hutu's and Tutsi's, which was normally based on ownership of cattle, we came, we saw, we institutionalised these differences, thus making them rigid... the rest is history), we created the foundation of the so-called Complex Political Emergencies (CPE) that have ravaged the continent since the decolonisation. It has little to do with the backwardness of its inhabitants.

[wilpuri]

This is totally ignoring the basic causes that lay on the very foundation of the post-kolonial problems. Fair enough, they decolonisation happened to fast, but that is not the whole picture. It is your so-called European missionaries who lifted the continent out of its backwardness that created the foundations of the whole mess. It were imperialist nations that carved up Africa in the nations we now know. Tell me, have you ever seen a nation with borders like most African (and for that matter ME) countries? They take no ethnic divisions into account. And so we arrive at the next issue: ethnics. The ethnic divisions which you so nicely call the root of pre-colonial conflicts were never so apparent as they are today. Situations like in Kenia or in Rwanda weren't possible without European colonisation. WE labeled them into ethnicities (for example it were European overlords that created the difference between Hutu's and Tutsi's, which was normally based on ownership of cattle, we came, we saw, we institutionalised these differences, thus making them rigid... the rest is history), we created the foundation of the so-called Complex Political Emergencies (CPE) that have ravaged the continent since the decolonisation. It has little to do with the backwardness of its inhabitants.

Why isn't multiculturalism enriching African states? Is it racist?

[bushbush]

Why isn't multiculturalism enriching African states? Is it racist?

unfortunately multiculturalism only works in places where people are educated and tolerant.

racist uneducated rednecks won't do well under multiculturalism and tend to be very racist and come up with idiot theory like certain group of people love to hate rape LOL.

[Tajir]

unfortunately multiculturalism only works in places where people are educated and tolerant.

racist uneducated rednecks won't do well under multiculturalism and tend to be very racist and come up with idiot theory like certain group of people love to hate rape LOL.

Africans, though not formally educated in large quantity, are extremely tolerant people, very hospitable.

I know that White people are tolerated among small African tribes everywhere in the continent, as guests, but I don't know how well a rural Serbian village would take to a Congolese guest.

Multiculturalism isn't popular in Africa because, frankly, who the hell moves TO Africa, I've only heard of researchers, fugitives, and unlucky employees moving to Africa permanently.

[wilpuri]

unfortunately multiculturalism only works in places where people are educated and tolerant.

racist uneducated rednecks won't do well under multiculturalism and tend to be very racist and come up with idiot theory like certain group of people love to hate rape LOL.

Well you must be having problems with multiculturalism right about where you live, then.

[Tajir]

Markas, thanks brother, we can really use some help in these dark times. Bring back the Whip!

Gaius Valerius,

This is totally ignoring the basic causes that lay on the very foundation of the post-kolonial problems. Fair enough, they decolonisation happened to fast, but that is not the whole picture. It is your so-called European missionaries who lifted the continent out of its backwardness that created the foundations of the whole mess. It were imperialist nations that carved up Africa in the nations we now know. Tell me, have you ever seen a nation with borders like most African (and for that matter ME) countries? They take no ethnic divisions into account. And so we arrive at the next issue: ethnics. The ethnic divisions which you so nicely call the root of pre-colonial conflicts were never so apparent as they are today. Situations like in Kenia or in Rwanda weren't possible without European colonisation. WE labeled them into ethnicities (for example it were European overlords that created the difference between Hutu's and Tutsi's, which was normally based on ownership of cattle, we came, we saw, we institutionalised these differences, thus making them rigid... the rest is history), we created the foundation of the so-called Complex Political Emergencies (CPE) that have ravaged the continent since the decolonisation. It has little to do with the backwardness of its inhabitants.

Thank you for pointing out something I've never heard; the quickness of decolonization, a very fine point you made + Rep.

But, yes, I do agree that the colonialists have taken traditional tribal, ethnic, and clan boundaries and widened them exponentially, part of the cause for many civil conflicts, if not all, in Africa. But had we taken the best from our experiences with the White devil, large portions of Africa would be on a narrow path to industrialism and ultra-modernization.

I still firmly believe that colonialism was good for the growth of Africa, speaking in terms of the 19th and early 20th century.

[King of Axum]

Markas, thanks brother, we can really use some help in these dark times. Bring back the Whip!

Gaius Valerius,



Thank you for pointing out something I've never heard; the quickness of decolonization, a very fine point you made + Rep.

But, yes, I do agree that the colonialists have taken traditional tribal, ethnic, and clan boundaries and widened them exponentially, part of the cause for many civil conflicts, if not all, in Africa. But had we taken the best from our experiences with the White devil, large portions of Africa would be on a narrow path to industrialism and ultra-modernization.

I still firmly believe that colonialism was good for the growth of Africa, speaking in terms of the 19th and early 20th century.

What the hell are you talking about racial oppresion and segregation can never have any good attributes tagged on to it.

[bushbush]

I still firmly believe that colonialism was good for the growth of Africa, speaking in terms of the 19th and early 20th century.

man i dont know..

colonists left some crappy weak institutions that directly enabled dictators to come in and take over. The result, oppositions became armed rebels and civil wars are everywhere in this poor continent. and You can't get economically developed with wars going on all the time.

[gaius valerius]

Gaius Valerius,


Thank you for pointing out something I've never heard; the quickness of decolonization, a very fine point you made + Rep.

But, yes, I do agree that the colonialists have taken traditional tribal, ethnic, and clan boundaries and widened them exponentially, part of the cause for many civil conflicts, if not all, in Africa. But had we taken the best from our experiences with the White devil, large portions of Africa would be on a narrow path to industrialism and ultra-modernization.

I still firmly believe that colonialism was good for the growth of Africa, speaking in terms of the 19th and early 20th century.

Hmm there is a valid point in what you say: we left to soon and more or less abandoned the continent. Well, this does ask for some nuancation of course: they wanted us gone as well. Western Colonialism had in itself the seeds of its undoing: knowledge. When you start educating a local elite, indoctrinating them with western values such as égalité, fraternité et libertée, you don't expect them to stay like docile sheep, not questioning your colonial overlordship, which hardly adhered the principles the Europeans themselves spread. A nice paradox. To give an example which is closest to me, a little anecdote about Congo (I'm Belgian you see ): Around 1959 the Belgian government decided to plan the decolonisation of Congo. They issued a specialist to create well, an 'exit-strategy' out of Africa. This person in question did as was asked an so they came up with a plan: it would take several decades to carefully decolonise the country. A few months later we are in 1960, king Baldwin I visits the capital of the newly independant nation Congo, a country with only 6 ppl who had a certificate... (oh yes, one of those being Lumumba which they killed only months later)

[wilpuri]

oh dont worry about my post Dahir, I was going at wilpuri and his muslim-rape theory.

Oi voi.

[Carach]

This is totally ignoring the basic causes that lay on the very foundation of the post-kolonial problems.

Not really. Was africa a peaceful continent where kids played with each other in gumdrop rivers that meandered through rolling green fields and clear blue skies before the evil europeans came and took all their freedoms away and put them into a life of miserable slavery?

excuse the sarcasm but africa was already a very fractured and conflicting continent prior to colonial involvement - They never experienced so much peace as they did under european 'rule' (where at least in britains case they all had representation and local government/democracies anyway). Remove the big brother and u get what u had before - lots of squabbling kids. This is what happens in any power vacuum.

[Markas]

*Dons red jacket and brown bess musket* Glad to hear it old chap, we've already dispatched 2000 redcoats and Lord Sneerington to govern over your backwat- er, I mean willing colonial equal.

[Cluny the Scourge]

You have no understanding of pride. If it could be proven to you that your country would be better off under the rule of others, with or without a population of a different race, would you be happy for them to conquer and govern you as though you were a child that needed a firm hand?

Thank you very much, but Africans would rather have their own countries and make their own mistakes - they might be tyrannised over by lunatic despots, but at least they are THEIR lunatic despots.

YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

[bushbush]

YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

the sad part is that due to weak institutional arrangements, the people in Africa often didn't even have a chance to decide their own fate. Once the horrible whitemen left, the horrible blackmen took over.

[Tajir]

You have no understanding of pride. If it could be proven to you that your country would be better off under the rule of others, with or without a population of a different race, would you be happy for them to conquer and govern you as though you were a child that needed a firm hand?

Thank you very much, but Africans would rather have their own countries and make their own mistakes - they might be tyrannised over by lunatic despots, but at least they are THEIR lunatic despots.

YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

What pisses me off is that my people (skinnies) were too proud to let others help them, which is specifically why Mogadishu (no matter how beautiful) always had a very 19th century look as opposed to the ultra-modern capitals of our colonialist-friendly neighbors.

I know what pride is, and my forefathers had a lot of it, too much if you ask me.

But what use is it to ME that I can walk around and parade my ancestors' courage to my WHITE colleagues on how we defeated them back HOME.

What sucks is that, I can be in Africa today with no pride or live in a foreign country with lots of pride. Few can have both. And that's the African dilemma. The African countries with the highest immigration statistics happen to have fought the hardest against colonialism; Ethiopia, Algeria, Somalia -- add any more and I bet they have tons of their people in other countries.

[Cincinattus]

What pisses me off is that my people (skinnies) were too proud to let others help them, which is specifically why Mogadishu (no matter how beautiful) always had a very 19th century look as opposed to the ultra-modern capitals of our colonialist-friendly neighbors.

I know what pride is, and my forefathers had a lot of it, too much if you ask me.

But what use is it to ME that I can walk around and parade my ancestors' courage to my WHITE colleagues on how we defeated them back HOME.

What sucks is that, I can be in Africa today with no pride or live in a foreign country with lots of pride. Few can have both. And that's the African dilemma. The African countries with the highest immigration statistics happen to have fought the hardest against colonialism; Ethiopia, Algeria, Somalia -- add any more and I bet they have tons of their people in other countries.

God bless you, Dahir, for seeing the value of foreign assistance. I lament the adulteration of the often-beautiful and robust local culture that colonialism sometimes brings, but foreign help is really the only way to break self-propigating cycles of violence and poverty like those found in some sub-Saharan nations.

+rep

[boofhead]

Colonialists may have given these guys metal wheelbarrows and guns, but only they did this with it.

EDIT: If that pisses you off Dahir I'll get rid of it.