Is it really all that great?

[angryhashbrown]

Upon installation, I was eagerly anticipating some glorious, valiant and magical world with vivid art and imagination, one where peril was abroad and growing... however I was upset to find that the maps osgiliath and minas tirith were just simple, regular maps. One's just a bridge, the other is just.. rome.

The fourth age? What the hell is going on in the fourth age? The first, second and third age were fantastic. Morgoth and Sauron, along with the five wizards... sadly none are in the fourth age. The fourth age feels bland, loss of valiance, practically no more magic, no elves, no dwarfs, just men, like in vanilla. The orcish armies aren't even all orcish, half of them consist of copied Gondorian men at arms dyed purple. Rohan pissed me off, as well. They attacked me in the middle of the campaign, just like any other faction would. Kudos to the oliphaunts and... the modified version of a troll.

The atmosphere of the game is set exactly like rome: total war. There are no darkening clouds, no mysterious artifacts, brilliant light of the heavens...

Did I f'k up the download? Or is everything I see what it's suppose to be? I love the mod, I just think it's capable of so much more.

[Aradan]

The Fourth Age was chosen because it would be ultimately unrealistic to have a LotR mod based on another age with the RTW engine. RTW's AI, as we all perfectly know, is incapable of holding on to an alliance with the player and *will* sooner or later attack him. In the War of the Ring, I just cannot see how a mod would justify Gondor and Rohan being at war with each other, or Gondor allied to Mordor; same gies with the First Age and the House of Feanor attacking the House of Fingolfin while being allied to Angbad. And this is very possible given the game's engine. In the Fourth Age however, lore isn't so tight and definitely not as well-recorded, so there is space left for us to 'propose' parts of the story and have some creative freedom, so a war between Rohan and RK, although not pleasant, can be justified with our background story.

Also, RTW's engine is incapable of portraying accurately magic powers and the such; unless you know of a way to portray Balrog or Sauron's weather effects or whatever. We have tried to make artifacts like Anduril, the palantiri, the crown of Gondor and the sceptre of Anuminas, the Elendilmir and many many more have an effect in game by turning them into ancillaries.

Creating custom settlements on the battle-map is extremely time-consuming and very very hard to do right, because of hardcoded limits and AI stupidity. Plus, it has been our priority to offer a stable, balanced and creative satisfying mod rather than simply shiny graphics. Custom settlements might add to the immersion, but other than that they offer very little. I think you will see that very few mods have done something radical in this aspect.

Finally, I must ask you that, if you think you can do better than this, please show us how or join the team. We're always eager to have talented people aboard. Bear in mind though, that you'll have to work endlessly for months and years, without getting anything in return for your work and sometimes you'll also get quite rude comments about the fruit of your labour which you freely allow others to enjoy...

[Elennsar]

Just men? What of the Elves of Ithilien? What of the Dwarves of Aglarond? Does the fact they're not a faction mean they "might as well not exist so any work done with them is useless"?

Personally, much as I find the First and Third Age interesting, even were the AI less hardwired to diplomatic polices that are utterly unfitting...you couldn't do justice to them.

The First Age would be one long, drawn out losing war against an extremely powerful and smart opponent.

The Third Age is little better.

I would like to see more of the fluff Aradan and the rest have to justify how, for instance, Rohan and Gondor are going from "allies forever" to tense and touchy, but I'm sure it is there.

Custom settlements? Other than Gondor/Adunabar, what would they do that that is so vital to the atmosphere? Very little.

Briefly: There are areas I would like to see added. What the team has done is magnificient, and while perhaps not "epic fantasy" is still capturing far more of Middle-Earth than many other things I've tried. It looks like Middle Earth. It sounds like Middle Earth.

I'm not writting this as a "the team is great stfu"...but I do think they've done a wonderful job and I look forward to seeing how things continue. Playing as Gondor (until Arnor is part of the map I'm refering to the RK as such, personal quirk) and watching the men of Adunabar fall before the hail of arrows from my longbowmen, watching the men of Harad batter themselves against the spearmen of the King...

Glorious enough for me.

[MasterOfNone]

Thank you for your kind words, Elennsar.

I do hope that others who post realize the enormous amount of work and effort that goes into a project like this. FATW started in the Fall of 2004, has had probably nearly a hundred people contribute to it over the years, with a team of 20 staff at its height. The core members have made a great deal of sacrifice over the life time of the mod, with detail, stability, balance and lore-accuracy being paramount.

In addition to this - or as a consequence of it - FATW has contributed a great deal to the modding community so that other mods had access to tutorials, new discoveries, as well as assistance.

I do not think any true Tolkien fan you will find any commercial game out there that can match FATW - imho. It's one of the reasons I helped build the mod in the first place.

[Elennsar]

Thank you for your hard work on a very enjoyable mod.

If there are any better games, I haven't heard of them. Middle-Earth is a very hard setting to represent as either a conventional strategy game, or Valar forbid, a RPG.

If only there was a way to make the damn AI stick to an alliance. If only...

[Halie Satanus]

Someone pass me my Christmas card list and a pen..

[Swiss Halberdier]

Thank you for your hard work on an excellent modification of Rome!

Truly Middle-Earth atmosphere and an interesting story behind!

Congratulations! In my opinion the best mod for Rome beneath RTR and Europa Barbarorum

[Lysander13]

Upon installation, I was eagerly anticipating some glorious, valiant and magical world with vivid art and imagination, one where peril was abroad and growing... however I was upset to find that the maps osgiliath and minas tirith were just simple, regular maps. One's just a bridge, the other is just.. rome.

The fourth age? What the hell is going on in the fourth age? The first, second and third age were fantastic. Morgoth and Sauron, along with the five wizards... sadly none are in the fourth age. The fourth age feels bland, loss of valiance, practically no more magic, no elves, no dwarfs, just men, like in vanilla. The orcish armies aren't even all orcish, half of them consist of copied Gondorian men at arms dyed purple. Rohan pissed me off, as well. They attacked me in the middle of the campaign, just like any other faction would. Kudos to the oliphaunts and... the modified version of a troll.

The atmosphere of the game is set exactly like rome: total war. There are no darkening clouds, no mysterious artifacts, brilliant light of the heavens...

Did I f'k up the download? Or is everything I see what it's suppose to be? I love the mod, I just think it's capable of so much more.

:hmmm:....It occurs to me there are ways to offer a mod critique, offer it constructive criticism as it were; on the off-chance the individual offering the criticism may make a valid point or two and the developers perhaps can gain an idea or two in the process. Then there is just flat out being rude and offering absolutely nothing useful. I"ll let other's decide which category the qouted post falls under....as if the title of the thread doesn't seal the fact. Pardon the presumption for saying so.... but please close this thread as nothing productive will come of it.

[Luxchamp]

@ angryhashbrown:

[FarKenal]

:hmmm:....It occurs to me there are ways to offer a mod critique, offer it constructive criticism as it were; on the off-chance the individual offering the criticism may make a valid point or two and the developers perhaps can gain an idea or two in the process. Then there is just flat out being rude and offering absolutely nothing useful. I"ll let other's decide which category the qouted post falls under....as if the title of the thread doesn't seal the fact. Pardon the presumption for saying so.... but please close this thread as nothing productive will come of it.

Upon seeing the screens and spending many hours on just reading how fantastic the game looks I went out and spent the equivalent of $20 US on buying the Barbarian invasion just to play this mod (unlike RTW which I love I knew I'd never like the cartoonish BI, and I turned out to be right). and very much like the original poster I got into it for the first time and was utterly dissappointed. I believe its because I played RTW for years and was so so tired of men fighting men. I wanted to see Elves, Trolls, Wargs, Ent's, Drawf's, and to fight off unrelenting hordes of evil orcs that I could dispatch back to the depths of hell. (Perhaps when I heard there was orc's included I optimistically/hopingly overlooked over all the writing, saying that they dont feature heavily in the game, and the mods focus is purely on men).

Instead it seemed too much like playing against the Mongols which I am so sick and tired of. I was looking for a breath of fresh air, and unfortunately like the first poster, this hyped-exciting mod didn’t quite do it for me. I think its also partially because I can tell these guys have put so much hard work and effort into it, and despite being so close, to what I was after, it was still not different enough to get me playing RTW again, after initially playing too much for my own good.

The original posts author may not of given his feedback in actual and constructive written words, though I’m sure the authors obviously saw his post as a player who would like to see more differentiation between this mod and RTW, whether they take that on board for future decisions is up to them, though if nobody says anything how are they supposed to know. Additionally if this post helps people gain more accurate expectations of what to achieve from this mod, than I think its all for the better. Blatantly accusing someone of not showing enough respect to the modders is nothing more than a “glass if half empty” approach to life. This is probably the best LOTR mod/game to date and Im sure anyone who has played it will realise this. So all you needed to do was point out to the original author that he has simply mis-read what he was about to install and download (As I also did). Aradan I believe summed it up very nicely in his answer and constructive response as to why particular decisions about the mod were made. Which thankfully, instead of being another fanboyish ‘how dare you’ response, the whole RTW community may be better informed about the mod and know whether it’s for them or not.

[Elennsar]

The problem is (speaking as someone who likes the mod), his criticism was not presented in an intelligent and thoughtful way, but purely in a critical way.

Certainly, if you expected something with more "fantasy" elements, you'd be disappointed. And saying that the mod is less "fantasy" related than the Third Age (less wargs, orcs, trolls, ents, elves, dwarves, etc.) is true so far as it goes.

But "this is not the mod for me" and "this mod sucks" are two different things.

If he wanted to protest that it was the former, it came off as the latter, and the title of the thread is part of why.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I hope that you can find another mod that fits your craving for orc smiting better.

[Lysander13]

That sure was a long post to just say....

Lysander13: Glass half-empty drinking FATW Fanboy
FATW the mod: Utterly dissapointing

However, since you went through the trouble..........

Originally Posted by FarKenal

Upon seeing the screens and spending many hours on just reading how fantastic the game looks I went out and spent the equivalent of $20 US on buying the Barbarian invasion just to play this mod (unlike RTW which I love I knew I'd never like the cartoonish BI, and I turned out to be right). and very much like the original poster I got into it for the first time and was utterly dissappointed. I believe its because I played RTW for years and was so so tired of men fighting men. I wanted to see Elves, Trolls, Wargs, Ent's, Drawf's, and to fight off unrelenting hordes of evil orcs that I could dispatch back to the depths of hell. (Perhaps when I heard there was orc's included I optimistically/hopingly overlooked over all the writing, saying that they dont feature heavily in the game, and the mods focus is purely on men).

Perhaps you would have done well to take the posted documentation on the mod literally and come to the realization that the mod wasn't for you and save yourself $20.00 USD in the process. Though i'm sure your local economy not to mention the Total War folks appreciate your contribution. So all is not lost. Looking at it any other way, would be looking at things through a glass half empty perspective, wouldn't you say?

Instead it seemed too much like playing against the Mongols which I am so sick and tired of. I was looking for a breath of fresh air, and unfortunately like the first poster, this hyped-exciting mod didn’t quite do it for me. I think its also partially because I can tell these guys have put so much hard work and effort into it, and despite being so close, to what I was after, it was still not different enough to get me playing RTW again, after initially playing too much for my own good.

Nothing wrong with the mod not being for you or the OP for that matter. For every 2 of you, the numbers plainly dictate there are alot more who do enjoy the mod. That's not to say some wouldn't like to see certain additions. For example i would love to see a bigger map. That said the majority do not have a problem with the setting, back story, or the implementation thereof relative to the mod itself and of course taking the limitations of the RTW engine into consideration. I think this post says it best....Again, perhaps not everyone's cup of tea, but apparantly there are quite a few who seem to enjoy it just the same.

The original posts author may not of given his feedback in actual and constructive written words, though I’m sure the authors obviously saw his post as a player who would like to see more differentiation between this mod and RTW, whether they take that on board for future decisions is up to them, though if nobody says anything how are they supposed to know.

May not of given his feedback in actual and constructive written words?? Now where would you get that notion from??
Would it perhaps be something like this astute observation?

Originally Posted by OP

The atmosphere of the game is set exactly like rome: total war. There are no darkening clouds, no mysterious artifacts, brilliant light of the heavens...

Did I f'k up the download? Or is everything I see what it's suppose to be?

It would seem to me the OP is obviously not aware of certain engine limitations and also didn't take the time to read all the available posted documentation of what the mod actually is and aspires to and it would appear your guilty of the same. Or perhaps more accurately stated in your case...you overlooked the provided documentation on the mod itself that explained what you were getting and while hoping for something else, despite all written evidence to the contrary. Everything is right there in perfect English as far as i can tell.

Additionally if this post helps people gain more accurate expectations of what to achieve from this mod, than I think its all for the better.

That's what the FAQ is for additionally the latest version release does a pretty good job as well of spelling out what a prospective downloader is getting. I fail to see how your post would be a better source of information.

Blatantly accusing someone of not showing enough respect to the modders is nothing more than a “glass if half empty” approach to life. This is probably the best LOTR mod/game to date and Im sure anyone who has played it will realise this. So all you needed to do was point out to the original author that he has simply mis-read what he was about to install and download (As I also did).

How about i just point out that if you and the OP would just have read the posted documentation and taken the words your reading literally. This discussion would have never taken place. As you and the OP would have realized the very things your complaining about are covered in said posted documentation and perhaps you two would of come to the conclusion...Perhaps this mod isn't for me....

Aradan I believe summed it up very nicely in his answer and constructive response as to why particular decisions about the mod were made.

Aradan is good people like that. Not like us boorish FATW Fanboys. Or perhaps i'm just the one boorish FATW Fanboy?...:hmmm:....could be....

Which thankfully, instead of being another fanboyish ‘how dare you’ response, the whole RTW community may be better informed about the mod and know whether it’s for them or not.

Which of course, if i may point out again.......There's plenty of material on the board here at TWC and over at the FATW home forums that provide the prospective downloader with plenty of the very same information that should lead any rational person to the decision on whether the mod is for them or not. All they need do.....is read it. The RTW community happens to be very well informed about this mod but it certainly isn't because of you or the OP.

[FarKenal]

It wasn’t my intent to come on here having a go at the mod. As I stated earlier, I think its been very well done, though just wasn’t for me. I truly spent many, many hours reading through the FAQ and other info (obviously if I have too much time on my hands to come here and post this 3 months after I had installed the mod). Yet despite that, somehow both I and the OP missed certain aspects, and I have pinpointed my misunderstanding down to this, which is clearly displayed in the FAQ

Q. What are the major factions?

A. Arnor, Dunland, Dwarves, Easterlings, Elves, Gondor, Harad, Orcs, Rohan, Rebel Gondor [will be renamed], and Variags.

Elve’s, Orc’s, Dwarves!! I was jumping up and down, with excitement, then when I saw this.

Once again in the stickied 'Latest Release Notes'

Players can choose between six factions: The Reunited Kingdom, The Kingdom of Rohan, The Empire of Harad, The Chiefdom of Rhûn, The Kingdom of Adûnabâr, and The Chiefdom of Dunland. In addition there are three new factions playable in custom battles: The Kingdom of the Elves, The Kingdom of the Dwarves, and The Kingdom of Dale. You will be treated to a whole host of new features including a new alignment, over 50 new units (more Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, & Trolls)

(I don’t count Adûnabâr as an orc faction, considering half of its units are humans)

So I figured and Im very sure that a lot of people made the assumption that Elve’s, Orc’s and Dwarves are in there, but just as non-playable factions…sure I can deal with that, as long as I get to fight it out with them. Sadly this is not the case, or is it well known, and Im not sure anyone would be after reading through over 200 posts just to clarify this one point, and I realistically couldn’t expect anyone to do that. Perhaps in the FAQ it could be amended to let people easily know this before they download it.


So please don’t just assume that we didn’t take the time to read the info. In the end I believe it came down to rationale assumptions. And maybe next time instead of just telling the OP to show more “respect” (which he very well could’ve, and Elannsar I agree it wasn't as nearly constructive as what it could've been for what I believe his purpose was), though the replies to him were just as non-productive, and could’ve asked him why the mod didn’t match up to his expectations, and then the modders could seek to further improve on the FAQ’s info etc. I too do very much appreciate all of their work and check up on this mod every so often to see if there have been any changes that would rekindle my interest (such is how good this mod is).

[MasterOfNone]

Just a note - the FAQ were written for the complete version of FATW. They do not refer, in whole at least, to the module expansions. If you go to the official site (where we do ask people to go) you will see the FAQ quoted above is from another site and not up to date. Not that even the official one is able to be updated as much the team would like, but that's lack of staffing for you

Again, there is a sticky at the site which makes it quite clear - if it is not already - that FATW is releasing the full mod gradually in such a way as to have each part playable. If we did not take this approach everyone would still be waiting for our first campaign release (or playing a very buggy/gappy one). Thus not everything will be in the current or former versions.

Adding more factions and more land to the campaign is - especially for the non-mannish factions - a very very large task. We assume, perhaps wrongly, that it would be a given that we could not have done so in so short a time.

[Cemendur Telcontar]

I like to consider myself a big fan of the works of J.R.R Tokein, and having read nearly every book on Middle-earth, I have to say Fourth Age Total War is probably how Tolkein would have liked to continue the series. Really, after the Third Age, all the high elves pretty much left Middle-earth, the Wizards were gone, the dwarves were fading away, really all the magic of the past ages were fading, so I didn't expect any fantastical magical things in this mod. What I did expect was a solid mod focusing on the legendarium Tolkein left behind, based on a world now ruled by men, and I found that and more. Sure I would like the map to be bigger (which from what I heard the team is working on doing, so I'm contented by that), but what is already in the mod is enough to hold me over. Good job, Fourth Age Total War team, good job indeed.

[Teutonic Joe]

Concerning Minas Tirith...could the RTW engine be able to have a fotress with several layers of walls each going up a certain level with multiple trebuchets,towers, and a massive gate.......and dont forget the giant mountain side the fortress is on....would it be even possible?

I personally like the mod very much. Gondor is indeed one of my favorite races next to Harad.
although im quite perplexed at the fact that their are cities in Mordor. After watching the film, in which Mordor seems to fall apart when the ring is destroyed, wouldnt Mordor be unihabitable?

[Aradan]

FATW follows the lore, not the film, so don't expect to see everything going according to what PJ came up with. Gorgoroth is still a barren wasteland, but it *can* support some life, so you get Barad Eden and Durthang in there. The lands around Nurn are very very fertile, so it's perfectly normal that there are settlements there.

About Minas Tirith: RTW engine has certain limits, which I'm sure don't allow the existence of a 7-leveled settlement. There might be workarounds for that (unlikely), but Minas Tirith is the most complex and hard settlement to create on this engine. And it's not just about the looks; collision, path finding, general AI behaviour must be right and that's not easy at all.

[boofhead]

Jeez, I've played many mods, and I am aware of a lot of the hardcoded limits and what modders have been able to achieve over the years with the engine, and what they have not. Considering these constraints, FATW is bloody brilliant.

Angryhashbrown seems slightly unaware of what can and cannot be done with a mod. I can't even mod, I'm a computer retard, and even I know these things.

[Luxchamp]

Jeez, I've played many mods, and I am aware of a lot of the hardcoded limits and what modders have been able to achieve over the years with the engine, and what they have not. Considering these constraints, FATW is bloody brilliant.

Angryhashbrown seems slightly unaware of what can and cannot be done with a mod. I can't even mod, I'm a computer retard, and even I know these things.

even though your avatar scares me a bit, i agree with you

FATW is one of the few reasons i play rome

[ccllnply]

Upon installation, I was eagerly anticipating some glorious, valiant and magical world with vivid art and imagination, one where peril was abroad and growing... however I was upset to find that the maps osgiliath and minas tirith were just simple, regular maps. One's just a bridge, the other is just.. rome.

The fourth age? What the hell is going on in the fourth age? The first, second and third age were fantastic. Morgoth and Sauron, along with the five wizards... sadly none are in the fourth age. The fourth age feels bland, loss of valiance, practically no more magic, no elves, no dwarfs, just men, like in vanilla. The orcish armies aren't even all orcish, half of them consist of copied Gondorian men at arms dyed purple. Rohan pissed me off, as well. They attacked me in the middle of the campaign, just like any other faction would. Kudos to the oliphaunts and... the modified version of a troll.

The atmosphere of the game is set exactly like rome: total war. There are no darkening clouds, no mysterious artifacts, brilliant light of the heavens...

Did I f'k up the download? Or is everything I see what it's suppose to be? I love the mod, I just think it's capable of so much more.

This smilies just dosen't do justice. Where can I find a smilie of spitting on someone in disgust? Clearly, seeing as has oviboulsy never heard of hardcoded limits, he has no idea of how to mod so why does he think he can critise someone elses brilliant work? Its not even constructive. I wish I could give neg rep