Strategy? I'm in a dire situation

[mieran]

Hi all, I come here to just read a lot but this is my first post.

Basically I am doing Greek Cities on M/H, this is my first proper campaign on Rome Total Realism (PE), I've never finished a campaign victorious before.
Here is the situation: I am about 60 years into my campaign, very early on I lose Syracuse and my italian provinces to the romans and carthiginians. This felt alright at the time as it enabled me to fully engage the Macedon's, they had got me down to just 4 provinces but i battled back and by about 240BC I had wiped the Macedon's off the map (which i was very proud of).

While fighting the Macedon's, the Illyrians kept sieging Apollonia and losing as I have good men stationed there. Once Macedon was defeated the Illyrians tried again and managed to take Pella(?). I then accepted their ceasefire as i was in a weak place due to the exhausting Macedon campaign.

The whole time the Ptomelies had been blockading random ports for fun it seemed but never invaded. They let me take Hieraptyna without any resistance really and never tried to take it back.

About now i was handed the province of Debeltos out of the blue because the people had revolted, due to this i went on to take Campus Getae and Tylis. This was the heigh of my campaign, the Illyrians feared me as did the Thracians. The ptomelies and Selucids were leaving me alone and i was free to build and take the odd settlement.

Now its gone wrong. The Ptomelies have decieded they want my land, they are by far the most powerful faction. They are well on the way to annihilating the selucids who are about a quarter of the power of the Ptomelies.

They attacked my thracian lands and i held out the first siege for one battle before they bought a full stack which easily destroyed me. I have deserted Debeltos and burned all the buildings and stationed my army in Campus Gatae precariously situated between the samaritans, Ptomelies and Thracians all who are on my borders. This is a trivial problem though as that army is doomed.

In my mainland the Ptomelies have at least 10 stacks milling about Phillipi and moving ever closer. The Illyrians have also decided that this is a good time to strike and we are still neutral however they have two half stacks on all of my borders.

I have almost a full stack in each City but many of these are the weak Hospitali(sp), If i try and fight Ptomely head on i will lose as their sheer number will inevitably wear down my resitant yet numerically inferior forces. If Illyrians also attack it will be double misery as their army is as powerful as mine but they are in no other wars.

I have no idea what to do, I have sent a diplomat to Selucid(I can't actually find it, its all Ptomely) to beg for an alliance to distract the Ptomelies but if this fails my game is surely over.

Advice?
I can get screenies if people would like them, i don't have fraps atm.

[Mythos_Ruler]

In a situation where the enemy is throwing stack after stack at you, your only recourse is to fight every battle on the battle maps. Doing auto-resolve will be just too risky and your victory margins aren't as high. Fight on the battle maps and run down the enemy units when they rout - slaughtering as many enemy soldiers as possible before they can leave the battlefield.

[Brusilov]

The other thing you can do is to launch a sea-borne assault into the rear of the faction.

With the Ptolemaics this is the Nile delta. Take the settlements and destroy everything. If you're not willing to try and hold onto them at least leave a small garrison that will make a mess of any assault - with decent walls I would use several hoptlite units plus about five of six archer units. The archers will be able to use flame arrows to destroy towers and the ram. You only need to worry about ladders then. Hopefully, the hoplites will deal with anything that comes up them.

Once you've removed the Nile area you may consider the area around Antioch.

Cripple their economic might.

Who holds Rhodes by the way? That gives a 40% bonus to sea borne trade and if the Ptolemaics hold that take it from them - it's easily the equivalent of sacking a few cities. It will also also benefit your economy.

Having a full stack in most cities must be a big drain to your economy. Certainly in front line settlements do that. Use decent mobile armies to take out the attacking force.

Also, set up forts (manned by a single unit) in the natural block points on the map. If only to slow down the advance. I am happier to lose a fort rather than have a settlement under siege.

[Tzarr]

You're in for some hard fighting Meiran I'm afraid. Agree with the other responses.

Do everything you can to stop the Illyrians attacking as well. Send a diplomat and offer a small tribute (100-200 for 10-20 turns). It may not work but sometimes it seems to confuse the AI and dissuade potential aggressors.

Take the initiative. Even an army existing of ordinary hoplites can be a formidable force. Quickly develop some mobile armies to throw at the Ptolemaics. Make sure they are led by your best generals. Go for individual stacks - not the grouped ones. Pick them off one by one if possible. Attack full strength stacks when you are at full strength, particularly if they are inexperienced and without a general, to do maximum damage. Make sure you have a spy around so that you know what you're taking on in advance. A half-stack composed of a top general and gold/silver experienced troops can be much more dangerous than a full-stack of fresh troops. Withdraw your army away from any grouped stacks - you do not want to be surrounded.

As Brusilov says, create choke points to prevent or slow further Ptolemaic forces getting into your territory. Keep decent garrison forces only in those cities likely to be imminently attacked. Attack their empire directly and try to draw back forces.

If it's really dire regroup around your heartland within easy reach of major cities (and replacement forces). It's difficult to sacrifice a hard won city but it may be necessary. Easy to say I know, but avoid sacrificing entire armies. Fight, damage, if necessary withdraw, replenish and attack again.

Have you an assassin? Get one up and running and target those enemy generals.

If you're short of funds, max out your taxes, even at the risk of rioting. You're fighting for your life here! Create a regular flow of replacement troops. Avoid expensive mercenaries unless you really have to.

No doubt you've thought of most of this already but it's the best I can offer. Will be good to hear how you get on!

[Jamey]

First and foremost, take Rhodes. This will reduce the Ptolemies' income by 10-20% and increase your by the same. This will simultaneously allow you to field another stack or two while crippling the Ptolemies' ability to generate new troops.

Next, determine where your best chokepoints and money makers are and hold them. If you lose some of your territory in what was Thrace, it isn't the end of the world. Your core provinces are your money makers and if pulling back into them allows you to field armies into Asia Minor and/or Egypt, it will be a huge advantage.

My overall strategy is simple. My best armies and generals go straight into the teeth of the enemy, crushing stack after stack. Ideally, I will situate them so that no more than 1 or 2 enemy stacks can attack them at once. Then, deploy your weaker armies into the enemy's rear areas to gain experience and take territory. If you can manage it, send these armies (at least 2 full stacks, I'd say) into Egypt to take and hold the enemy heartland. You can hold the bridges in the Nile delta against most concerted assaults and rotate your stacks back to Crete for retraining.

[mieran]

Thanks for all your advice.
My plan is to go and take Rhodes followed by taking a whole stack and fleet to Egypt to mash their economy a bit. I've attached some screenies, I'll play on later and see how it progresses. I have a very small navy and no money so I have to hope that their navy is not too aggressive as those plans could soon be ruined by this.

[MasterOfThessus]

Wow, that's a bad situation! Don't give up though, what is rtr without some challange?

[morteduzionism]

As Greece you should really be able to beat back Illyria.

Your infantry is better than theirs and you have access to archers...

Rain arrows on them...close with your infantry...run 'em down with cavalry...

[Brusilov]

That looks like you are in real trouble. At least they aren't all full stacks. If you fight the battles on the battlemap you should be able to fight off most of the armies. Just don't take on too many multiple stacks at once.

Fighting multiple smaller stacks can be to your advantage. They don't always appear on the battlemap at the same time. I usually try and destroy one army before the next one appears. There are times when they do all appear at the same time.


You need to be very careful when shipping an army via sea. There is a good chance that you will meet a rival fleet and be in trouble, at least naval actions aren't usually decisive in RTR (unless you're badly outnumbered and have no movement points left)

What units do you have off screen? Do you have any decent stacks or is everything in your settlements?

The army you have up north - you may as well use them to fight their way south causing as much damage as possible. Think about giving the settlement to the Illyrians or Thrace to trigger a war between them and the Ptolemaics. If they refude a trade then offer it as a gift the following turn. You could also just abandon it, destroy everything amd move south.

Do you automanage your settlements? I tend to manage all the settlements and allow them to specialize. One to produce troops (barracks and blacksmiths) and several others to build up economically to support the army.

Try and ensure that your best governors are in in your largest settlements to generate the income. Ignore the numbers that appear on screen as they include a proportion of the upkeep of the army and agents (including family members). A larger settlement will take more of that burden.

Good luck.

Edited: Load up a zipped compressed saved game. We can see who makes the best response to your situation. You play RTR PE with RTW or RTW BI?

[Jamey]

That looks like an interesting situation. I was picturing you holding more of Greece/Makedonia in my head. Here's what I'd do:

1) Take Rhodes.

1a) Simultaneously, mop up any isolated or semi-isolated enemy groups. If you have a night commander available, take advantage of that to help split up the enemy half stacks for annihilation. If the stacks you attack have reinforcements, make sure to attack aggressively to keep them split up in the battle map.

2) Take Antigonea, Apollonia, and Pella. As noted by others, Illyrian infantry is greatly inferior to yours. You should be able to crush them readily. Once you do, you should be able hold the northern Greek front with 2 mobile armies and a decent garrison in each of Bylazora, Philippi, Antignea, and Apollonia. This should both increase your income and free up some troops. Greece is so tightly packed that retraining should be fairly straightforward. EDIT: After looking at the map in-game, I recommend also taking Scodra. Scodra, Bylazora, Philippi is the ideal defensive perimeter for holding just Greece and Makedonia.

3) Attack into Egypt proper. A side trip to sack and burn Cyprus might also be effective. I recall that it is a major trade center for the Ptolemies. Remember that if you stick by the coast, you can land your army each turn so that if your fleet is sunk, the troops don't go down with the ships.

-----

My standard Greek army setup was something like this:
8 Epirote Phalangites (or some form of hoplites if I can't get Phalangites)
4 Spartan Hoplites
4 Ranged units - 2 archers and 2 slingers preferably; mostly mercs
2 Generals
2 Cavalry - Sarmations or Gauls if I can get them

The pair of generals is important. They allow a hammer and anvil for taking out enemy commanders and other adventurous enemy cavalry. Also, as the secondary general accumulates hand me down ancillaries from the primary, he becomes reasonably competent to command a split army when that is desirable (my secondary generals normally start as the complete losers of the family tree...).

I'd build my infantry line with a unit of Spartans on each end and 2 of them in reserve. I'd use my generals aggressively (but not stupidly!) since they regen casualties. I'd hold my other cavalry as a reserve.

In general, with a Hoplite or Phalangite army, I like to use strategic aggression and tactical defense. Where possible, I'll present my army in a defensive location (ford, bridge, mountain pass, hilltop, etc) and dare the AI to attack me. Given the amount of troops the Ptolemies are pouring out, this may be your most effective strategy. You can also fully garrison Philippi and fight it on the defensive as that seems to be the Ptolemy route of advance.

Getting an alliance with ANYONE on the Ptolemies' borders will be helpful. Beg, borrow, or plead for an alliance with Thrace, Sarmatia, Seleukia, Pontus, Armenia, or anyone else whom you can find with a land border. It would be helpful to see your diplomatic picture, as well.

[mieran]

delete, double post, this one was messed.

[mieran]

Cheers for all the strategies guys, very useful!
Time for an update: 9 years have passed since I lasted posted screenshots and it is going fairly well.

As soon as I started it up again the PTO(Ptomelies) attacked Phillipi with 2 full stacks which I easily defended. Phillipi has proved instrumental in this campaign as it has been sieged 4 times in the last 9 years and each time resulted with a heroic or clear victory.

My search for the Selucids to form an alliance was struck disastorously short when I received the message that the Selucids had been completely destroyed. The PTO effectively own the bottom right hand quarter of the map.
Pretty much all of you have advised to take Rhodes, I did this as soon as i could muster a fleet that could get me there, the PTO's offered no resistance and had just 1 unit inside resulting in an easy capture. This has done wonders for my economy, i went from having -3000 to having about 10000 a turn in a matter of years. As you'll see from the picture I also moved northwards to take Helicarnassus without too much difficulty. I moved onto Syrmya(sp) when i was ambushed by a full stack PTO army. I've retreated to Rhodes leaving just 1 unit in Helicarnassus as Rhodes is very important, when Helicarnassus becomes sieged I will destroy its buildings.

The PTO are almost sieging the provinces of Phillipi and Bylazora every turn. Phillipi is ,as mentioned above, very self dependant. Bylazora is not quite as such and every few turns I send my Thessalonican army to help them out.

I view these last 9 years as a success as I have lost no settlements (1 camp) and gained 2 as well as slightly damaged the PTO economy and Military. This is partly due to the docile Illyrians, they've resisted attacking me for 9 years for what reason I do not know but I am very glad. I guess it is only a matter of time.

Until Illyria declare war, I am very hesitant about taking Pella, Antigonea etc as this truce with them is doing wonders for my faction. Once they have I will try to bottleneck the PTO at Phillipi and then invade Illyria to take some provinces.

I went to Rome to ask them to attack PTO (it wouldnt let me ask for alliance) they refused as they don't trust me. However, it is not in their interests at the moment to declare war on PTO as they are busy conquering Iberia.

@Jamey: I plan eventually to take a full stack to Alexandria and surrounding area to split the PTO in two while ransacking and destroying cities. However, atm my navy is very weak. the PTO's have a big navy and every time i move a ship the PTO's attack it. Cheers for the Army plan, i will try and implement that from now on.

Diplomatically (I can't be bothered to load it again):

Greek Cities(me): Allied with Germany
Enemies: PTO's (duh), Samaritans(one of their settlements rebelled and was handed to me, thus making me at wear with them).

PTO: Allied with Illyrians and I think Carthage
Enemies: Only me!

I'l get a pic of it tomorrow.

@Brusilov: I use automanage, cities have random buildings and generals are all over the place, I will sort this tomorrow.

Q: I've read in many places about using a V with phalanxes to draw enemies in and effectively bite them. How do you do this, when I place units they all face one way and are normally parallell, moving them makes it very hard to get it accurate, is there any way to rotate units or is it just a very very loose v?

[Everybody Hates Socrates!]

Long-time RTR player, first time on the TWC! (3 years I've been playing RTR! I'll drop the name Tyr, and I'm relatively sure that nobody will know who I'm talking about from the old forums! Note: I'm not him!)

Here's how to solve your problems with a focus on long-term strategy. There are a few goals here:

1.) Secure your bases.

Take all your troops out of Rhodes (except for one or two) and IMMEDIATELY reinforce Philippi. I call this making a "fortress city" which is basically just to bleed the enemy of troops at minimal loss to you (but it looks like that's what you've been doing!).

Now, take that navy to go on patrol for Ptoly navies. You NEED cash in this game. If a group is blockading your port, kill it. Also, station said navy in a very well developed city like Athens so you can retrain it if it gets damaged later. If you keep the fight constant with their navy, your patrol group will quickly get triple gold chevrons and take on much more than their own number.

2.) Defend against the Ptolies, with the eventual goal of taking the fight to them.

Keep doing what you're doing with Bylazora, make sure that you keep a steady flow of reinforcements of hoplites (to fight at the gates if they get broken) coming that way!

3.) Capture some important cities on the Adriatic coast, this will be VERY important because it will let you monitor the growth of Rome.

I understand the caution about the Illyrians, but they're easy! You stand to make a lot of money by taking 2 or 3 of their cities! Just don't go too far and get Rome mad too early! I would suggest taking one or two units out of each "safe" city and transfer them to Thessalonica and combine them with the general near Bylazora.

Take this general and immediately take Pella. Then reinforce yourself, and start an expedition into Illyria. I wouldn't go any further than Scodra, as it COULD make Rome mad...once you've taken at least Pella, Antigonea, and Scodra, the Illyrians are basically done! I'd start sending in some spies and diplomats to Roman territory to get a picture of how they've expanded.

These three things should do wonders in the war.

[Jamey]

I'd recommend against completely removing the garrison for Rhodes if you are playing using Barbarian Invasion's executable. In BI, the AI will make naval invasions, mostly along the trade lines of the seas.

I still strongly recommend pushing up to Scodra. It's just a matter of time until the Illyrians attack. They are allied with your enemy. I'd much rather choose the time and place for the war than let them choose. Plus, this will shorten your defensive lines, allowing you to free up more forces for offense.

My next suggestion is to build a pair of fleets to sweep up the Ptolemies' blockade fleets. Naval trade is Greece's economic lifeblood - you must keep it open to maintain your armies. Something on the order of 5 top end ships should be able to demolish the typical blockade force without taking any casualties (especially once you start getting chevrons and Admiral stars). You can bring the two together (or hide in a port) if they start making bigger fleets. You should always park them in a port and retrain casualties when you're done using them. Keeping them in fighting trim is the key to not losing expensive and experienced ships!


Finally, from looking at your screen shots, I suspect that you are using bigger garrisons than you really need. I'd recommend something like 2 hoplites and 2 peltasts as a typical rear city garrison. It's big enough to consolidate into a decent reaction force in an emergency (naval invasion or large rebel spawn), but reasonably inexpensive.

[mieran]

Hey everyone, once again thanks for your advice. I've taken on board as much as possible.

I'm now in an amazing/awful situation.

I took a full stack to Alexandria and siege every city before destroying all buildings and moving on. I have over 100,000 (monies) from this and it means all Ptomelaic ships are busy transporting troops to take me on. Due to my vast bank account, every unit who is killed in Egypt is replaced by a Merc unit, expensive yes, useful yes. I'm vastly enjoying my Egyptian campaign although it does seem a few full stacks are beginning to move in on me.

Back Home is terrible, Phillipi fell after the Illyrians/Ptomelais(allies of each other now) both send 1,500 men. I killed over 2,000 but fell. Bylazora also fell to a very similar situation as these two ganged up on me.

Thessalonica is on the edge, I just successfully defended a siege of 1:3 on rating, they had about 2,200 men(Ptomelais only) and I managed to fight them off losing 60% off my troops. They immediately siege again meaning that i cannot retrain or get more units. There are 5 (on average 3 quarter full) stacks around the city 3ptomelais and 2 illyrian, i have one half stack nearby. Advice anyone!

The illyrians are being aggressive, due to them being awful they are yet to take a settlement but they are slowly hurting my defences which are much needed on the Ptomelais front.

I am considering an expedition to the heart of Illyria to ransack and pillage to hurt their economy. To do this i will have to effectively empty my home cities of their troops but I feel if i can not stop this phase of stacks and stacks from all sides then there will be no point having my home cities.

I can't find much to do with my money, i am constantly building and pumping out elite hoplites every 2 turns from every settlement but as only about 7 are producing at the moment it's not doing a great deal of good.

[Preskinn]

How about pumping out some less elite units? Some relativetly cheap holplites a la 240 men a pice and some cavalry maybe? My expericane is you get more out of your cash that way, and a balanced army is a good amry - allso yous hould be able to increase your army size quite a bit this way, instead of having expensive slowbuilt small elite-bands you'd have a cheap large, quick-built backbone. You could support them with elite troops on the flanks and cavalry for outmanouvering. That's what I would do!

(I have not read all of the posts about your problem, so this might not be very helpfull, but I hope it will be)

/pre