Italy: Best northern defence?

[C4X]

I have a campaign underway as Roma in the latest RTRPE, M/M. Italy is secure from the Po river in the north, to the heel and toe in the south. Corsica, Sardinia, and Sicily are next, then I will attempt to gain a temp ceasfire with Gauls, Greece and Carthage to re-organise and further improve economy while finishing up construction of a decent navy and recruitment of expeditionary forces. Otherwise 3 fronts should be fun (well, 2 really. Greek army aint lookin too good now).

Question: What is the best way to defend my northern border without wishing to campaign too much more into Gaul territory? I want to minimise costs associated with holding my border with Gaul, while keeping it simple and effective.

Should I stay south of the Po and defend from there? I have already declared war on the Gauls in order for me to take Aemilia.

Or should I press on and take Cisalpine Gaul, Liguria, Venetia and possibly Histria? I want to avoid the expense and complexity of that strategy, though 3 of these provinces have ports and are likely to bring in good income. The mountain passes seem difficult and expensive to hold. Maybe I'm wrong on that . . . . either way it would delay my planned campaign into Iberia, or Carthage, or Greece (undecided).

Any tactical strategy for either of these scenarios, to help me weigh the pros and cons, would be appreciated.

Cheers.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Like in vanilla, once Rome has taken Mediolanum and Patavium, the Gauls are more incline to accept ceasefire which will give some breathing space if the Makedonian (or Illyrian) decides to join in the fun. However, if just taking Bononia and Juenensis, usually Gauls will not stop sending stacks to retake them back especially if they're not engage with wars with the Iberians.

[Quinn Inuit]

One of the problems with this game is that forts aren't generally much help, at least in their historical role. However, they are good for closing the door behind you, after a fashion.

Here's how I defend northern Italy (pic taken from the test game I'm running on the latest ExRM version):


The blue dots are positions for forts, and the red dots are positions for armies. If you don't have Massilia or whatever that town is on the left there, ignore the farthest left red dot and the two blue dots on the left. If you do have Massilia, ignore the blue dot second from the right.

With that setup, no armies can get past your outer cities and into your heartland, or even at Bononia (which I find to be a key recruitment center in the ExRM and build up accordingly).

[Preskinn]

What I did was that I built forts at all passes, put something like 6 units of principies in each one, as well as 2 slingers and 8 scorpions (lol I know)

In RTR PE M/N your forts have earth-walls built - so you just put your scoripions on them and attack the enemy before they attack you (sally). And hammer thair forces untill they are demoralized and you can charege with your Principies to break them. I held of something like 10 stacks of Carthage's with minimal forces this way - I was FORCED into using this tactic, or else I would have lost the game!!!

[C4X]

In RTR PE M/N your forts have earth-walls built - so you just put your scoripions on them and attack the enemy before they attack you (sally). And hammer thair forces untill they are demoralized and you can charege with your Principies to break them. I held of something like 10 stacks of Carthage's with minimal forces this way - I was FORCED into using this tactic, or else I would have lost the game!!!

Nice! Now that is what I'm talking about. A decidedly sneaky, yet totally justified strategy in your situation (and soon to be mine). I wasn't sure how this latest version of RTR responded to pushing the Gauls back through the alps. I would be concerned with the associated costs of so many units though:hmmm:

6 Principes (maybe Hastati would do) + 6 Scorpion (less than you used) + 3 Funtidores = 15 units X 4 (each pass) = 60 units. Plus Histria, or at least the area, defending against Maks/ Illyrians. Say low average 400 X 60 = 24000+ for the units, and a further 12000/ turn for upkeep. Though it seems to be something that is nearly unavoidable, there has to be a cheaper way to secure the North! I don't want no troubles from the likes uh them there Gauls. Just wanna keep em at bay. What to do? . . . .maybe keep the forts in place as forward observation/ defence posts, lightly guarded, with two Full stacks as mobile patrol? If I do secure a ceasefire with the Gauls, it should be a workable plan, given that it is highly flexible. Combined with small raiding parties deep into Gaul territory, slash and burn policy, that might keep em from getting too frisky. My real target has to be Greece and/ or Carthage. Can't get too tied up with barbarians, hehe.

Anyways, thanks for the advice. I will def try the "demoralizor" approach with scorps.

[AqD]

Nice! Now that is what I'm talking about. A decidedly sneaky, yet totally justified strategy in your situation (and soon to be mine). I wasn't sure how this latest version of RTR responded to pushing the Gauls back through the alps. I would be concerned with the associated costs of so many units though:hmmm:

6 Principes (maybe Hastati would do) + 6 Scorpion (less than you used) + 3 Funtidores = 15 units X 4 (each pass) = 60 units. Plus Histria, or at least the area, defending against Maks/ Illyrians. Say low average 400 X 60 = 24000+ for the units, and a further 12000/ turn for upkeep.

Why you need 4 armies for defense?? Gauls wouldn't set you as their main enemy because they have to fight spain, unless you expand outside of northern italy. One army is enough to hold against their small attacks.

BTW scorpion has very low upkeep so you may increase the number. Also it may be better to use velites than funtidores on the walls, because you'd be forced to attack from the front, in which higher-attack-point weapons are preferred.

You'd have a problem only if you expand beyond the northern italy (anything more than the two rebel cities). Keep away from the overpowered macedonians and rich illyrians. If you want to take their lands, send navy & army to greece. Gauls' tiny towns are just not worth the price - you'd very possibily get yourself into gauls + macedon + illyria, and spain if gauls die.
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GLASS PIPE

[Skirnir]

When I play the Romans and I have my main sights set to the south (Carthago, Alexandria) here's what I do: take Patavium, Mediolanum, Jenuensis, Massilia, and Aquelia (sp). Max out walls at Massilia and Aq and fill them with decent infantry and missile units. These two cities will effectively keep the Gauls and Illyrians out of Northern Italia. Then, for added security, place forts at each of the openings in the Alps (west, northwest and northeast).

The AI will try to invade because the AI is stupid. Punish them by burning some of their settlements to the ground and they'll think better of you.

[C4X]

When I play the Romans and I have my main sights set to the south (Carthago, Alexandria) here's what I do: take Patavium, Mediolanum, Jenuensis, Massilia, and Aquelia (sp). Max out walls at Massilia and Aq and fill them with decent infantry and missile units. These two cities will effectively keep the Gauls and Illyrians out of Northern Italia. Then, for added security, place forts at each of the openings in the Alps (west, northwest and northeast).

The AI will try to invade because the AI is stupid. Punish them by burning some of their settlements to the ground and they'll think better of you.

Nice. So, you are saying the AI will try to take back Massilia and Aquileia straight away, and not bother with the forts so much?

[Jamey]

When I play the Romans and I have my main sights set to the south (Carthago, Alexandria) here's what I do: take Patavium, Mediolanum, Jenuensis, Massilia, and Aquelia (sp). Max out walls at Massilia and Aq and fill them with decent infantry and missile units. These two cities will effectively keep the Gauls and Illyrians out of Northern Italia. Then, for added security, place forts at each of the openings in the Alps (west, northwest and northeast).

The AI will try to invade because the AI is stupid. Punish them by burning some of their settlements to the ground and they'll think better of you.

This is essentially what I did (unmodified RTRPE). I put an army with 4 each of principes, hastati, velites, and local merc slingers. I ran all of them through my foundry at Roma (especially the ranged units!) to get their equipment up to level 2. I've since crushed the Gauls repeatedly at Massilia and swept through Illyria, Greece, and Makedonia. They snuck minor forces past me and besieged Mediolanium a couple times, but that was an easy siege to break.

As the Romans, my normal garrison is 2 infantry (Hastati or local reasonable upkeep infantry) and 2 velites. This is especially effective in closely settled areas like Italy and Greece where I can pull together the Hastati into a credible attack force to beat off rebels or small invasions.

After taking Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia, and Malta, I used fleets for southern defense. I wound up blockading the Carthaginians until the Numidians and Iberians (my loyal minions allies!) started taking ground on them. I then took the core of Carthage from Hippo Regius to Thapsus as well as Palma. The sad thing is that I wouldn't have followed this strategy if they had agreed to peace and traded with me. Their loss, my gain.

This was the point where I retired my Roman campaign, as there wasn't going to be any real resistance to my dominion. I was seriously considering going to war with the Seleukids and the Ptolemies simultaneously to see if they'd bring a challenge, but the annoying grain imports around the Black Sea dissuaded me.

[AqD]

Just keep a few velites/legionaries in the frontline. The gauls IMHO are very weak: bad economics and lack of heavy-armoured units for siege. They're annoying at best.
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Child Depakote

[Brusilov]

I use forts as well, however, I never intend for them to hold out against a siege for very long - I use a single unit (read cheapest) in each fort and have a mobile army operating in the area.

They can either lift the siege or attack the army once it's taken the fort (or moved out of it).

Putting units inside a fort is a bit expensive.

I also use the same approach to settlements - minimum is best. Maybe a front-line settlement will get a garrison that can fight and defeat an assault.

[Maximus Lazero]

Well, I'm not playing any mod for RTR, but as Carthage I found myself trying to defend Italy from the Gauls as well. Simultaneously, the Iberians (again) declared war on me, and my allies, the Nubians, betrayed me! Fighting three fronts at once being bad enough, I had only 4 armies to do it with and an economy not yet suited to maintaining any more troops (especially not if I wanted to keep building in my cities >_>)

So I applied a strategy I used while defending Mesopotamia from the Egyptians in a previous game: stick a large stack at a river crossing. In this case, the eastern Po River crossing, capturing the territory just south of it. The Gauls would send in large stacks every winter or two, which my spearmen routinely defeated. The Gauls could flank me, and regularly did, but then they would always try to CROSS the river anyway, thus letting me engage and destroy two armies. Upgrading the nearby cities, I was able to draw on local troops and Carthaginian cavalry to hold the line successfully until I finished off Numidia and began my offensive against Gaul.

[morteduzionism]

Question: What is the best way to defend my northern border without wishing to campaign too much more into Gaul territory? I want to minimise costs associated with holding my border with Gaul, while keeping it simple and effective.

If you would've stopped at Arretium Gaul wouldn't have bothered you for years.

But probably the best way is to park an army in a fort on the western side of Bononia in order to defend Genua/Bononia from the repeated attacks from Gaul. That's an easier front to guard than defending the whole valley and mountain passes.

If you insist on taking the rest of the valley, place forts in the passes but only leave a single unit in each. Have an army stationed in the valley to respond to the pass under attack. More often than not the enemy will use 2/3 turns laying siege to the fort giving you time to arrive. Since you can't attack through a fort you won't be able to lift the siege but that's fine. As soon as the fort falls attack it and destroy the enemy army in the fort, recruit another single unit and garrison the fort again.

Or should I press on and take Cisalpine Gaul, Liguria, Venetia and possibly Histria? I want to avoid the expense and complexity of that strategy, though 3 of these provinces have ports and are likely to bring in good income.

I doubt those provinces will give you more benifits than Sicily/Corsica. Having Syracuse/Melite and Arretium/Aleria are probably your most valuable city combinations. Secure those first.

Pros/Cons
The main problem with Cisalpine Gaul, IMO, is not Gaul but the others. You should find out what factions will be vying for the area in the near future. Another factor to weigh in is trade. The question you need to ask is if taking Histria will start a conflict with the master of the Balkans? Why? Because you will cut off all your trade from the area.

The worst case scenario is that you have to fight Greece/Makedonia, Germania and Gaul for the cities across the Po.

If you wait at the river you face another problem, the weird attraction Gaul has for Rome. It's an unhealthy attraction because they get so fixated on Rome that they allow other factions to conquer the valley.

Best thing is to investigate Transalpine Gaul. If Gaul is still in possession of the whole area it's safe to move into the rest of the valley. If Germania or some other faction has reached the Alps......you know what happens when you gain a border with a faction...

[Tzarr]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzarr
Have now taken three of the four Illyrian cities from the Macs and have stack upon stack descending on me. Of course the temptation will be to take the fight to them, head to Pella and raise it to the ground (I might do that anyway and then leave), but I'm going to hold my position and will at least try to calm them down, otherwise I'll be constantly fighting in Greece.

You're going to be doing that anyway. Regardless of the faction Greeks/Maks they are relentless when it comes to owning the Balkans.

True - what I meant is that under my rules of historical expansion I'll have to defend (which can get a little dull) rather than attack.

[morteduzionism]

True - what I meant is that under my rules of historical expansion I'll have to defend (which can get a little dull) rather than attack.

If you're sure you're going to be defending for a few years you should add some Balistas/Scorpions(whichever is best against troops) to that army. They're simply devastating when defending, you don't have to maneuver the slow buggers.

[Preskinn]

Having forts with cheap scorpions and support garrissons is effective, fun and utterly neccesary some times!

Myself I really needed them to be able to survive at all againt Carthage when they started their 2-front war against me (they controlled all of nort africa, sicily, Spain and Gaul, and were starting to envelop all of the alps)
God I loved that Campaign!!! They sant something like 2-4 full stacks of elite troops against my big (but in relation small) forts - I had to use my first army and stretch it over the whole of the alps to fend of them and the illyrians all the time - man did I have to work to stay afloat!