A Question of Loyalty

[Exarch]

patriotism is a beautiful thing.
and sometimes not.
patriots will invariably defend their country against all criticism, even if that country has committed horrendous wrongs.
The question i want to know, is how far patriots will endure their country's atrocities until their internal sense of right and wrong kicks in and compels them to act, not unlike Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg.

This thread is mainly directed towards the americans and british on this site-the most vocal patriotic groups.
Here's the scenario, and it's not unlike von stauffenberg's situation:

You're a military officer and your country is at war. Your country is the aggressor and threatening world security by continuous invasions of other countries for the sake of oil, a substance that powers entire economies, livelihoods and lives.
How far would you go, before you decided that enough was enough and decided to commit treason for the sake of humanity?

[Kiljan Arslan]

If my country was commiting war crimes equal to the Nazies I 'd turn against it.

[hellheaven1987]

If my country was commiting war crimes equal to the Nazies I 'd turn against it.

The problem is, majority German did not know Nazi was using concentration camp. Probably same as Japan too.

Basically the concept of "country" is too old, now it is time to think at least at "region" level.

Edit: Now I know why French Foreign Legion still exists.

[KodiBurns]

I would not commit war crimes; however, I would not stop others. I just don't have the stomach for it. I would fight fair and to the end.

[Problem Sleuth]

If it was ruled by someone liked Hitler... Undoubtedly. Humanity takes precedence over a single country.

[Exarch]

I would not commit war crimes; however, I would not stop others. I just don't have the stomach for it. I would fight fair and to the end.

i remember watching a scene from the tv series 'East West 101' about a croat soldier who'd committed atrocities in the balkans relating how their officers would force the troops to commit atrocities like rape etc, or else the soldiers themselves would've been tortured and killed for disobeying orders.
so it's not an easy case of 'i'd fight fair and to the end'.

[KodiBurns]

i remember watching a scene from the tv series 'East West 101' about a croat soldier who'd committed atrocities in the balkans relating how their officers would force the troops to commit atrocities like rape etc, or else the soldiers themselves would've been tortured and killed for disobeying orders.
so it's not an easy case of 'i'd fight fair and to the end'.

Im an American. So yes, it would be.

[gambit]

It's hard to say as there is a difference between a country and it's government.

[Exarch]

yes, very good point gambit.
the von stauffenberg plot proved to the world that being german and being a nazi were not the same.
irrespective of that fact, you'll still be considered a benedict arnold for commiting treason.

[MaximiIian]

How far would you go, before you decided that enough was enough and decided to commit treason for the sake of humanity?

Treason is relative to what one feels themselves loyal to.

I am first and foremost loyal my friends and loved ones, who I would never betray, regardless of the circumstances.

Then, a Louisvillian, a city I would only betray and rebel against if the municipal government was acting a manner which was overtly fascist.

Then, I am a Kentuckian, and I would only betray Kentucky if it were to secede from the United States or commit acts of aggression and extreme violence against other states for arbitrary reasons (except against Indiana or Tennessee).

Then, I am an American, and I would commit treason against America if it were aggressively committing war crimes, crimes against humanity, or posed a danger to itself, i.e were taking away the basic rights of the states and of the people. Essentially, if it were doing what Germany in WW2 was doing, I would pull a Stauffenberg.

[gambit]

I'm an american so I suppose as it would go, I would betray my government if they began to commit war crimes, betray or manipulate the constitution or some other form of bullcrap (that the U.S. government probably has done)

However when it comes to betraying my country which I assume is going against liberty and the constitution, killing innocent U.S. civilians, selling out the country to another and being russian. These I would never do as I have a huge belief in loyalty. My loyalty does however come with priorities
1. Friends and Family
2. Honor, Duty and Morals
3. Country (but this is tied with duty I suppose)

[Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus]

I have no loyalty to my country, Nor should i to something which i have been randomly delegated to by Chance. Humanity is the most important loyalty.

[Niles Crane]

Only if I knew full well that my nation was committing war crimes. Then obviously I would go to the UN with my complaint.

[Kiljan Arslan]

Well they did know their country was endorsing terror against its own citizens. And that would turn me against it.

Book Burnings endorsed by the government would see me taking up arms against the government.

[hellheaven1987]

Well they did know their country was endorsing terror against its own citizens. And that would turn me against it.

Book Burnings endorsed by the government would see me taking up arms against the government.

So, would you against government if you were living in 1920s when people in South publically lynched African American??

[Kiljan Arslan]

Hmmm was that supported by the government?

[hellheaven1987]

Hmmm was that supported by the government?

No, but slavery yes.

[gambit]

I suppose region does play a large part in my loyalties. I live in Michigan and personally I believe we michiganders should sally up, invade canada and create the Empire of Michigan ...or Republic of Michigan...hmm name pending.

[MaximiIian]

Hmmm was that supported by the government?

Until the 1960s, they turned a blind eye, which is just as bad.
As the auld quote goes, "All that is needed for evil triumph is for good men to do nothing at all."

[Каие]

You're a military officer and your country is at war. Your country is the aggressor and threatening world security by continuous invasions of other countries for the sake of oil, a substance that powers entire economies, livelihoods and lives.
How far would you go, before you decided that enough was enough and decided to commit treason for the sake of humanity?

I'm not going to pretend id be the heroic leader of the rebellion because a lot of people talk and claim **** but when the **** hits the fan they would never act the way they said. e.g. Bush when told about the 9/11 attacks.

Truthfully i think id probably do a Rudolf Hess and attempt some kind of Peace pact. Or if i had huge support and respect within the army i'd purposely disobey orders and refuse to fight like over 3,000 IDF members refuse to take part in the occupation.