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  1. #1
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    WITH markets swinging widely, the Federal Reserve slashing interest rates and the word “recession” on everybody’s lips, renewed attention is being given to the gap between the haves and have-nots in America. Most of this debate, however, is focused on the wrong measurement of financial well-being.

    It’s true that the share of national income going to the richest 20 percent of households rose from 43.6 percent in 1975 to 49.6 percent in 2006, the most recent year for which the Bureau of Labor Statistics has complete data. Meanwhile, families in the lowest fifth saw their piece of the pie fall from 4.3 percent to 3.3 percent.

    Income statistics, however, don’t tell the whole story of Americans’ living standards. Looking at a far more direct measure of American families’ economic status — household consumption — indicates that the gap between rich and poor is far less than most assume, and that the abstract, income-based way in which we measure the so-called poverty rate no longer applies to our society.

    The top fifth of American households earned an average of $149,963 a year in 2006. As shown in the first accompanying chart, they spent $69,863 on food, clothing, shelter, utilities, transportation, health care and other categories of consumption. The rest of their income went largely to taxes and savings.

    The bottom fifth earned just $9,974, but spent nearly twice that — an average of $18,153 a year. How is that possible? A look at the far right-hand column of the consumption chart, labeled “financial flows,” shows why: those lower-income families have access to various sources of spending money that doesn’t fall under taxable income. These sources include portions of sales of property like homes and cars and securities that are not subject to capital gains taxes, insurance policies redeemed, or the drawing down of bank accounts. While some of these families are mired in poverty, many (the exact proportion is unclear) are headed by retirees and those temporarily between jobs, and thus their low income total doesn’t accurately reflect their long-term financial status.

    So, bearing this in mind, if we compare the incomes of the top and bottom fifths, we see a ratio of 15 to 1. If we turn to consumption, the gap declines to around 4 to 1. A similar narrowing takes place throughout all levels of income distribution. The middle 20 percent of families had incomes more than four times the bottom fifth. Yet their edge in consumption fell to about 2 to 1.

    Let’s take the adjustments one step further. Richer households are larger — an average of 3.1 people in the top fifth, compared with 2.5 people in the middle fifth and 1.7 in the bottom fifth. If we look at consumption per person, the difference between the richest and poorest households falls to just 2.1 to 1. The average person in the middle fifth consumes just 29 percent more than someone living in a bottom-fifth household.

    To understand why consumption is a better guideline of economic prosperity than income, it helps to consider how our lives have changed. Nearly all American families now have refrigerators, stoves, color TVs, telephones and radios. Air-conditioners, cars, VCRs or DVD players, microwave ovens, washing machines, clothes dryers and cellphones have reached more than 80 percent of households.

    As the second chart, on the spread of consumption, shows, this wasn’t always so. The conveniences we take for granted today usually began as niche products only a few wealthy families could afford. In time, ownership spread through the levels of income distribution as rising wages and falling prices made them affordable in the currency that matters most — the amount of time one had to put in at work to gain the necessary purchasing power.

    At the average wage, a VCR fell from 365 hours in 1972 to a mere two hours today. A cellphone dropped from 456 hours in 1984 to four hours. A personal computer, jazzed up with thousands of times the computing power of the 1984 I.B.M., declined from 435 hours to 25 hours. Even cars are taking a smaller toll on our bank accounts: in the past decade, the work-time price of a mid-size Ford sedan declined by 6 percent.

    There are several reasons that the costs of goods have dropped so drastically, but perhaps the biggest is increased international trade. Imports lower prices directly. Cheaper inputs cut domestic companies’ costs. International competition forces producers everywhere to become more efficient and hold down prices. Nations do what they do best and trade for the rest.

    Thus there is a certain perversity to suggestions that the proper reaction to a potential recession is to enact protectionist measures. While foreign competition may have eroded some American workers’ incomes, looking at consumption broadens our perspective. Simply put, the poor are less poor. Globalization extends and deepens a capitalist system that has for generations been lifting American living standards — for high-income households, of course, but for low-income ones as well.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/opinion/10cox.html

    This meshes pretty well with my own experience. My income in several times what it was several years ago, but I don't live all that much different than before.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  2. #2

    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    So this is just a way of saying that if we compare consumption rather than income, the gap is much less a gap?

    Now, unless I am mistaken, just because we consume and waste around the same doesn't mean there isn't much of a gap between the rich and poor that we should worry about.

    In other words, this seems almost irrelevant.
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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna View Post
    So this is just a way of saying that if we compare consumption rather than income, the gap is much less a gap?

    Now, unless I am mistaken, just because we consume and waste around the same doesn't mean there isn't much of a gap between the rich and poor that we should worry about.

    In other words, this seems almost irrelevant.
    Good to know that the fact that the difference between rich and poor lifestyles is not very big has no effect on you.

    It seems facts are not such subborn things after all.

    Telling the truth Da Skinna!
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    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    Telling the truth Da Skinna!
    according to exarch I am like
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    What one cannot compliment annothers point?

    I think he made a very good point that that was only covering consumption.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  6. #6

    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    so the top 5th spent around 70,000 and the bottom 5th spent 20,000 and the argument here is that consumption between rich and poor is not very different, thats 50,000 dollars difference.
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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary88 View Post
    so the top 5th spent around 70,000 and the bottom 5th spent 20,000 and the argument here is that consumption between rich and poor is not very different, thats 50,000 dollars difference.
    Please continue to read.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  8. #8

    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    yes and after everything they say the top 5th still spend over double per person than the bottom 5th.
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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary88 View Post
    yes and after everything they say the top 5th still spend over double per person than the bottom 5th.
    So what do you think the right proportion should be?
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    #Well that means that if its double what the bottem pay thats definatley not a small gap.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  11. #11
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    #Well that means that if its double what the bottem pay thats definatley not a small gap.
    So what do you think the right proportion should be?
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  12. #12
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    Uh I believe this is about someone claiming that there isn't a gap between rich and poor.
    according to exarch I am like
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

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    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    Ideally, there shouldn't be a gap, because there shouldn't be a division between "rich and poor". There should just be people and the amount they make in accordance to need and contribution.

    But, since we have ****ed-up system...it happens to be that there is a big income gap, regardless of consumption ratios.

  14. #14
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    No one claimed that. If there were no gap, there would be no rich, only the poor.

    Ideally, there shouldn't be a gap, because there shouldn't be a division between "rich and poor". There should just be people and the amount they make in accordance to need and contribution.
    Of course there should be, that is how society most efficiently rewards more productive citizens.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

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    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    Of course there should be, that is how society most efficiently rewards more productive citizens.
    I disagree. Apportioning resources in accordance to the citizens' needs and productivity is more efficient, and does away with all the snarled, tangled web of thorns that is the capitalist system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    However you claimned that the gap was insignifigant and it looks like that is not the case.
    Exactly. I wasn't saying that there was no gap.
    Quite the opposite. I was saying to him that, the main problem is that there is a gap, and it is a significant gap.

  16. #16
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    However you claimned that the gap was insignifigant and it looks like that is not the case.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  17. #17
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    However you claimned that the gap was insignifigant and it looks like that is not the case.
    I dare say I should have hada poll at to open this thread to see what people thought the gap was. I'd hazard to guess that most would have taken options greater than 2:1.

    I never claimed "insignificant" that either, just much less than is commonly perceived. I am actually a little disheartened that the difference is not greater.

    We are of course, measuring a gap in a very specific way, and my concern is the disregard for the things that should, ideally, have more priority.
    It's seems to me that actual lifestyle would be a remarkably important way to compare income groups. What is uselessly academic is to bemoan income disparity without without taking into account how people actually live.

    I disagree. Apportioning resources in accordance to the citizens' needs and productivity is more efficient, and does away with all the snarled, tangled web of thorns that is the capitalist system.
    Hardly. We already know from experience that countries have tried to do this end up with massive bureaucracies and the whole nation mired in poverty.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  18. #18

    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    We are of course, measuring a gap in a very specific way, and my concern is the disregard for the things that should, ideally, have more priority.

    It is the disregard for humanity here that bothers me. Numbers are only numbers when you can't even begin to worry about things beyond that of basic necessities.

    If we comfort ourselves with our little achievements or findings and keep telling ourselves we are doing something, then we only end up blinding ourselves.

    When we begin to disregard the realities with abstract academia, we don't solve anything. We patch it up for a time, but a real solution has yet to be reached. It is in this that I cannot agree with, accepting the status quo as being the best of all possible worlds. We are on a path towards that, we've always been, but we take way too many rest stops deluding ourselves that this is all we can do right now.

    That's some of my points at least, regarding poverty. And I wholeheartedly agree with Marx's statement that while capitalism generated wealth, it did little to spread it.

    That's why countries in Latin America can be seen as the epitomes of capitalist ideology. 90% of the wealth in 10% of the population. That is raw capitalism.

    My thoughts at least.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    So what do you think the right proportion should be?
    like Kiljan said, i don't think there is a 'right proportion' but in a thread where about the gap you claim 'not so much' i would say that double the consumption is quite a bit.
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  20. #20
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: A gap between rich and poor? No so much.

    TO us over 2 to1 isn't not so Much BWB thats what were debating.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

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