Blocking Timurid Ports

[TheOnion]

I am about to butt heads with the Timurids and have been blockading their ports for about 10 turns. Is there any way to know what kind of impact the blockade has had on their economy or overall strength? In total I am blocking around 10 ports spanning from Egypt, through the holy land and up to Constantinople.

[pwijnands]

You can check their financial graph in the faction overview. If it is going down then you are having effect. You can also try sabotaging with your assassins, moving in spies and moving in priests. All of this will lower public order and require them to keep more troops inside their settlements, hurting economy.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

The problem is that their stacks they start with have no upkeep. Blockading doesn't hurt them as it would hurt an other faction or you. Once you have defeated their starting stacks it will hurt them a little as they need to train more replacement units. They have some units that are always free of upkeep: Sabadar militia, elephants, heavy lancers which are off course their most dangerous ones.

[Pyrebound]

Well, at least they net less money.

[UhOhIt'sAnArrow]

If you have ports near them they will go trade with you instead of them, so that's something.

[Soryn Arkayn]

IMO if you allow the Timurids to capture settlements and therefore have Ports for you to blockade, you're not doing what you need to do to defeat them. The key is to never let the Mongols or Timurids to gain a foothold by capturing settlements. As soon as they appear you should train at least four Army stacks of your best units, Crusade to the Holy Land (against either the Turks or Egyptians, if necessary), and do your best to single out the enemy's army stacks one or two at a time until you defeat them in an attritional war.

Earlier in my current campaign, I was excommunicated by the Pope at the time of the Mongol invasion, so I had my hands full with the Catholic factions crusading to Toulouse (of all places?). By the time I crushed my adversaries and bribed the Pope into reconciling my faction, the Mongols had already gained a foothold in the East. I had to wait a while for a Crusade to become available again, then I trained five Crusader Armies and sent them on their way, followed soon afterward by three more Crusader Armies and two stacks of garrison militia -- which I could afford thanks to the no upkeep cost of crusading armies. I quickly captured Iconium from the Turks, which was my Crusade target simply because I was already allies with the Eqyptians and the Mongols hadn't yet captured any settlements when I began the Crusade. After I gained my foothold in the East, I pursued peace with the Turks while I focused all my forces on the Mongols. I quickly captured Caesarea, Adana, Antioch, Aleppo, Damascus, and finally Jerusalem, and thereby displaced the Mongols and drove them back into the desert. They reappeared about 10 turns later with three full stacks, but I completely annihilated them and destroyed their faction once and for all.

After retraining and replenishing my armies, I was gearing up for a war against my ally, the Eqyptians, and four more armies were en route from Europe when the Tirurids invaded. I had hoped that the Timurids would invade Russia (like they did in my previous campaign as the Scots), but instead they invaded the Holy Land and made a bee line for Jerusalem. I diverted my armies bound for Egypt and to the Holy Land and by the time the twelve Timurid stacks were in sight of Damascus I met them with eight of my own.

As I explained in my suggested strategy, I engaged the Timurids two or three stacks at a time and in a single turn destroyed 2/3rds of their forces, and reduced their horde to a scattering of under-strength stacks. From that point on it was merely a mopping up exercise to destroy the Timurids.

This was my strategy against the Timurids. Admittedly, it wasn't ingenious or Machiavellian -- in truth it was basically the Mongols and Timurids' strategy used against them -- nevertheless, it was straightforward and got the job done.

I suppose that my strategy would only work if the player's faction is already firmly in control of the game. At the time I had conquered all of Western Europe and not even my top three rivals combined could match my military strength. So I suppose that if you don't have vast armies available to destroy the Timurids, blockading their Ports could help defeat them in a war of attrition, but I prefer my strategy of annihilating them quickly, brutally, and mercilessly (I always executed all of the Mongol and Timurid prisoners).

[TheOnion]

I suppose that my strategy would only work if the player's faction is already firmly in control of the game. At the time I had conquered all of Western Europe and not even my top three rivals combined could match my military strength. So I suppose that if you don't have vast armies available to destroy the Timurids, blockading their Ports could help defeat them in a war of attrition, but I prefer my strategy of annihilating them quickly, brutally, and mercilessly (I always executed all of the Mongol and Timurid prisoners).

I am in firm control of the game and out produce them by a ton so victory is certain, it's just a matter of where and when. Currently the Timurids are busy fighting Hungary for Constantinople so I am free to choose the perfect target. I am waiting for another chance to call a crusade and get the papal states to open a 2nd front on them in Egypt. Then while they are fighting on 2 fronts I will strike and crush them.

[Soryn Arkayn]

I am in firm control of the game and out produce them by a ton so victory is certain, it's just a matter of where and when. Currently the Timurids are busy fighting Hungary for Constantinople so I am free to choose the perfect target. I am waiting for another chance to call a crusade and get the papal states to open a 2nd front on them in Egypt. Then while they are fighting on 2 fronts I will strike and crush them.

The sounds like a smart strategy, but I think you're over-thinking this. In my experience the AI isn't smart enough to respond how you think it should. I understand by orchestrating a two front war for the Timurids you expect them to divide their force and therefore be easier to conquer, but in my experience the Mongol and Timurid hordes tend to move together and attack armies and settlements en masse, commiting a much larger force than is necessary to secure victory.

You say that they're battling Hungary for Constantinople. If I'm right they're probably attacking with multiple stacks and the Hungarians are grossly outnumbered. Meanwhile, their settlements are probably moderately-to-lightly defended. If I were you I'd let the Timiruds cross into Constantinople's province (if they haven't already), then blockade the sea crossings with your warships to trap them there; let the Hungarians weaken the Timurids -- or at least keep them occuppied -- while you invade their territory and capture their settlements. Worst case scenario the Timurids conquer some of the Hungarians' territories, which you can soon capture for youself. If you have a rich treasury, consider gifting the Hungarians some money (5000-10000 per turn) so they can train fresh units to fight the Timurids.

[TheOnion]

The sounds like a smart strategy, but I think you're over-thinking this. In my experience the AI isn't smart enough to respond how you think it should. I understand by orchestrating a two front war for the Timurids you expect them to divide their force and therefore be easier to conquer, but in my experience the Mongol and Timurid hordes tend to move together and attack armies and settlements en masse, commiting a much larger force than is necessary to secure victory.

You say that they're battling Hungary for Constantinople. If I'm right they're probably attacking with multiple stacks and the Hungarians are grossly outnumbered. Meanwhile, their settlements are probably moderately-to-lightly defended. If I were you I'd let the Timiruds cross into Constantinople's province (if they haven't already), then blockade the sea crossings with your warships to trap them there; let the Hungarians weaken the Timurids -- or at least keep them occuppied -- while you invade their territory and capture their settlements. Worst case scenario the Timurids conquer some of the Hungarians' territories, which you can soon capture for youself. If you have a rich treasury, consider gifting the Hungarians some money (5000-10000 per turn) so they can train fresh units to fight the Timurids.

You hit it right on the head. Hungary is way out numbered. I have a few stacks on the edge of their territory ready to jump in if they collapse. Thanks for the tip on gifting them money for troops. Up until now I only give them a little money to keep diplomatic relations up.

[Old Geezer]

The Mongols and Timurids almost invariable march around in a 9-patch horde until they take a city to be their new home. Sometimes they will string out a bit if no powerful armies are around them. These huge glob-like hordes are very difficult to deal with straight on. You will wind up with 3 of your armies attacking one of their which will have 3 reinforcement armies. If you auto resolve you will normally lose a lot of men and battles while you whittle them down and get them to spread out. If they haven't taken a home and started to fan out a bit to conquer or explore, I have baited them with weak armies in forts. I've even had to surround them with forts full of units to get them to attack. They are not particularly adept at assaults and you can sally with cavalry and destroy their artillery. One Timurid army with elephants with artillery just sat in front of my gate and never attacked while, to my utter surprise, I destroyed the other army. In my present game the Mongols seem to be quite cowardly. They backed off a siege on a Polish fortress for no apparent reason and have refused to attack me accross a ford although the have a considerably larger and better force. The AI is truly mysterious. Maybe a woman designed it. (I have been married for 41 years and I know how much I don't understand women and never will.)

[Soryn Arkayn]

The Mongols and Timurids almost invariable march around in a 9-patch horde until they take a city to be their new home. Sometimes they will string out a bit if no powerful armies are around them. These huge glob-like hordes are very difficult to deal with straight on. You will wind up with 3 of your armies attacking one of their which will have 3 reinforcement armies. If you auto resolve you will normally lose a lot of men and battles while you whittle them down and get them to spread out. If they haven't taken a home and started to fan out a bit to conquer or explore, I have baited them with weak armies in forts. I've even had to surround them with forts full of units to get them to attack. They are not particularly adept at assaults and you can sally with cavalry and destroy their artillery. One Timurid army with elephants with artillery just sat in front of my gate and never attacked while, to my utter surprise, I destroyed the other army. In my present game the Mongols seem to be quite cowardly. They backed off a siege on a Polish fortress for no apparent reason and have refused to attack me accross a ford although the have a considerably larger and better force. The AI is truly mysterious. Maybe a woman designed it. (I have been married for 41 years and I know how much I don't understand women and never will.)

I agree that the AI of the Mongols and Timurids isn't nearly as aggressive or adept as they should be. But this is true for M2:TW's AI in general.

I often see AI factions with multiple army stacks remaining idle in the same province forever. Even if they're at war with another faction and that province isn't in any danger, the AI faction will still keep their stacks there for no reason while the enemy invades and conquers their poorly defended outlying provinces.

My point is, the AI in the TW games is really dumb -- relatively speaking (I know it could be worse).

Specifically for the Mongols/Timurids, the AI's problem appears to be that they target a particularly settlement to conquer, similar to a Crusade or Jihad. The Mongols usually target Jerusalem (for whatever reason :hmmm; whereas IME the Timurids will either invade the Near East or Russia (it usually depends on what faction owns the province that the Timurids arrive in; if it's the same faction that occupies the Near East, they'll declare war on them and invade the Near East; but if it's the same faction that controls Russia, they'll invade Russia instead (the territory, not the actual faction).

Regardless, the Mongols/Timurids sometimes won't bother to capture or even attack settlements along their axis of advance; instead they seem to make a bee line for their objective and ignore everything else. Again, this is just stupid AI, because by capturing settlements they'll gain income, strongholds to shelter their soldiers, and the training infrastructure to replenish their armies. Apparently the Mongol/Timurid AI is uninterested in these things; which is bewildering because they're necessities for all of the other factions.

But I suppose that the player should be grateful that the Mongol and Timurid AIs are so stupid, otherwise they'd be much more difficult to defeat. When I first played M2:TW, I was actually intimidated by their sudden invasions. But now, I consider them a temporary inconvenience, similar to the effects of the Plague, which simply must be endured and inevitably overcome.

In my most recent campaigns, even at VH/VH difficulty, by the time the Mongols and Timurids appear I'm already the dominant faction, so I can train massive armies to engage the invaders head-on and swiftly destroy them in an ironically attritional war (because they can't replenish their armies, except using mercenaries, which aren't nearly as deadly as the Mongols/Timurids veteran warriors).