Open discussion of roleplay triggered settlement levels

[repman]

Many people are asking of an era settlement system (high, late,..). I don't like this idea because
- it's an effect from the outside not under control of the player
- you need to play extremely long to get the more interesting units with 0.5 turns

Instead of an era based settlement upgrade system how about a roleplay based level system: example with northern ancilliaries

city
2 Neophyte_Governor give access to wooden_wall
2 Budding_Bureaucrat ...................stone_wall
2 Skilled_Bureaucrat .....................large_stone_wall
2 Superb_Administrator ..................huge_stone_wall

castle
2 knights give access to (wooden_castle)
2 bannerets .................(castle)
2 commander ............... (fortress)
2 grandcross .................. (citadel)

- the numbers (2, 3, ..) for a faction can be discussed (you know the game better than me)
- AI will play in the same level as player (trigger is only for the player but the effect is for all), AI still get some more advanced units with the garrison script

Positive:
- it's a simulation of a point system
- your characters are getting more valuable and you have to take care of them
- you decide in what pace the game will advance

If you don't like it then please explain the reasons !

In the future it can be expanded with a governor ranking system to seperate the advances in cities and castles tree


repman

[Valantine]

I have voted against it as I feel that the rank of your generals shouldn't have any effects on what technology you can use such as stone walls, there si simply no justification of your generals holding a better rank and suddenly being able to build better walls.
I personally like the way it is now - progress at your own speed. However if enough people are asking for an era based system then i'd be happy with thet providing it is done by years OR a matching of several criteria such as: holding x amount of settlements with x amount of trade agreements to simulate the sharing of ideas between architects and craftsmen of the world. But thats going to be a lot of work to implement.
V

[repman]

How about this ?
Seperation between governor-city-upgrade and knight-castle_upgrade

city
2 Neophyte_Governor give access to wooden_wall
2 Budding_Bureaucrat ...................stone_wall
2 Skilled_Bureaucrat .....................large_stone_wall
2 Superb_Administrator ..................huge_stone_wall

castle
2 knights give access to (wooden_castle)
2 bannerets .................(castle)
2 commander ............... (fortress)
2 grandcross .................. (citadel)

[Velvet_Elvis]

I think just slowing down the growth rate of settlements would be much better.

[Creslin]

I would rather see changes to population required for upgrading so its more of an informal era system. Like if you needed 40000 for a large city and 75 for a huge city it would be good. I dont know about castles though since it doesnt feel right to have that based on population alone.

[gubbs]

I think just slowing down the growth rate of settlements would be much better.

If you set taxation to Very High and later on drop it to High, the growth rate is fine imho ..

[Werebear]

Repman with this system small factions (like teutons lit milan venice etc) can't develop/expand normal.......

[Valantine]

With small factions this idea doesn't provide the "slow and steady" approach that DLV requires for full enjoyment, in order to progress as a smal lfaction - for example Ireland - you are going to have to go balls to the walls just to be able to have enough family members to attempt to reach such "civilised" heights.
Sorry Repman, but i can;t put myself behind this idea.
V

[Adam the VIth]

Agree with Valantine here -- it begins linking too many aspects of the game that should not (IMHO) be linked. It might create a "dead-end" situation -- not enough family members (as is often heard as a complaint) that leads to all sorts of problems, but then limits your economic and technological growth.

Repman: At some point you'll just have to recognize that perfecting this mod is going to be hard -- because you're darn close already!

[Alatar98]

i think those changes would make the game more fustrating and complicated than enjoyable.

id also rather just see a slower growth rate in the citys. i find even with tax on very high they tend to expand very quickly

[Son of Mao]

I acedently voted for no when I meant yes so "imaginarily" convert one from the "no" side to the "yes" side.

[Xtiaan72]

This could really change the 'feel' and 'pacing' of a mod that is amazing in those areas...

[IZ-Master]

I must said it will be kind of stupid for this reason

The Grand Cross general go to a castle strart making the walls , keep goin into another castle and start making the walls

U see it will be more anoyance than enjoyment since it wont limit anything ^^ it will make ur Grand cross general run around to upgrades the castles ^^ unless ofcourse u already though about it ^^ and have a fix

[Valantine]

I think Repman is saying you have to have 2 generals with grandcross ancillaries in order to build huge stone walls. They don;t need to be in the settlement itself you just need to have them in your family tree. Of course, i could be wrong...
V

[IZ-Master]

I see ^^ well that also could be it ^^

If not it can go like this

general get promote , they gain and anciliary (example ) a brick , to be able to get advance castle u need to have brick on anciliary and once u start construction , u lose the brick , and same general cant have a brick from the same lv again, whoever since on DVL there so many anciliary , it can be a trait instead :p ^^

[repman]

I don't want to do things more complicated just give another role play element. you don't need to move generals to upgrade your settlements...but interesting idea
It would be trait based. But can be changed easily to the ancillary system with banners for the military career and Governor Level Rolls for the Governors. Maybe this would be more visible.
The population limits for settlement upgrades are still in.

There should be more differentiation between generals career and governor career
I think military ancillaries (> knight) should be relevant only for generals career and governor ancillaries (> neophyte) only for governors career.

I will add more gain messages.

repman

[IZ-Master]

that would be a nice idea indeed , but it could take some work if u saying what i think u said ^^,

like making all military anciliary the follwoing line

and if not GeneralCareer or and if not GovernorCareer

or something like that , Actually if you gonna do this also it should be done with traits , and im pretty sure no general and governor will ever be alike ^^ and add the RP flavor big time ^^

[ivanhoex]

hi

i dont know exactly how the traits increase, and i am quite vet here, so it will have to be perfectly clear what makes the character get better in that area, so a person can decide what to do with the guy in order to slow or accelerate the pace.

that could mean to have your civilians leading armies and your generals stocked on the castles, so they dont get ranked... its not very interesting.

besides, as always happens, you may never have a superb administrator out of bad luck... just because they dye untimely.




if you really want to have both the ability to play late and to play slow, you already have the choice between 1 and 0.5 years/turn ...

indeed, if you want to use some energy anywhere in the mod, i recomend fervently to do a "high era" start, maybe encouragin someone to do the mapping or getting it borrowed from any other modder that has that already.

i am not with those that ask 3 diferent eras, but 2 eras with the "slow pace" ability seems like the best.



for the ones complaining about having the choice between best archers vs musketeers because they grew too fast the last turns... i will vote with the ones that ask for less growth in cities. if we have a "high era map" then it wont matter, if we go for the long ride, we can have it, if we want to go to the interesting times we might...

if i have a parallel lifetime i would be able to build such a map, and even to insert a lot of castles in the map "a la british"... it might even be posible to reincorporate timurids since some of the factions would have dissapear..





edit:

a different aproach to your idea:

gaining acces to X technology triggers availability for all factions of certain era units in 100 more turns (or 200)

as with the archers example above, once you get to those archers, 100 turns later you have acces to new walls.

the issue with units being outdated is that once you get a new unit you really want to mix it with your standing armies, to do so you have to dissmiss old troops, or simply kill them using them to target rebels or difficult sieges, sending them in front.

i assume that in 40 turns you might have built enough of the new troops to fill your ranks, and had the time to kill/dissmiss old fasioned ones.

then you should have 100 turns, maybe less maybe more, to use them, to know how they work, etc.

and once you began getting used to them too much, you should have the option to upgrade them to a new unit or a new armour upgrade, something that changes how they look. and then you again should have the time to make the whole army upgrading.

take also in account that it is not the same time that cost to upgrade when you have two armies and 6 provinces than when you have 20 provinces and 6 armies roaming around.

maybe the simpler the upgrade the sooner it cames... and the best upgrades takes longer between each.




and one last aproach: (the simplest and better)

have a building of 1 turn and 1 florin: "Era Changer: build this to allow next generation of technology to florish".

have as much upgrades for this building as you find it suits your taste.


in fact. i have just got another idea: "if you are too far from this technology level, this building will push you (and your foes). all earlier buildings are cost:1 and 1 turn to build, all cities have a +200% growth rate, up to 1 tier (or 2 depending on how many tiers you set) below the one that you have chosen to play with."

that means that the first ten turns you only build the Era Changer, then you start building in your cities like crazy, a building a turn, free of charge. all cities in the world will be experimenting the same growth. growth will stop when 1 city of the player have reached "POPULATION LEVEL 9"

if it is posible to make a bigger building queue for buildings, then do so as well until trigger "back to normal".

if building cost cannot be set otherwise during campaing (this is probably false since there are traits that do so like architect) or time (same thing) you can give all players unlimited amount of money, reseting all available troops to hire to zero until the era is achieved. (to avoid exploiting both for the player and the AI.) once era is reached all money resets to 20.000 and the game actually starts.... this is only to do if you cannot set building time and cost to 1 fl / 1 turn


instant late era DLV. i am praying this to be posible.






hoping you have simpatized with my point of view


cya and tnx!

[gubbs]

hi

i dont know exactly how the traits increase, and i am quite vet here, so it will have to be perfectly clear what makes the character get better in that area, so a person can decide what to do with the guy in order to slow or accelerate the pace.

that could mean to have your civilians leading armies and your generals stocked on the castles, so they dont get ranked... its not very interesting.

besides, as always happens, you may never have a superb administrator out of bad luck... just because they dye untimely.

These are my concerns also.

[repman]

You know already what actions advance generals or governors

If your character dies....bad luck

repman