Your stand on socialist policy in the U.S.?

[awisler]

This is about your stand on policies such as socialized health care. Lets just have a civil debate about it here.

Anyways, am I really the only one who is bothered by the socialist changes that many democrats support in the U.S.? I mean the country was founded upon capitalist ideals, and America became the number one industrial power through laissez-faire capitalism. I could understand if we were having massive problems with capitalism that change would be needed, but I think we are doing pretty damn well. I mean, if it ain't broke don't fix it, right?

When I talk to democrats that support the socialist type changes, they seem to forget what has kept America going for so long, capitalism.

One thing that I really do not like is socialized health care. I mean you should not have to pay for my health care, and I should not have to pay for yours. Not only does it increase taxes, but increases the already huge amount of stress on hospital staff. People who have a fart stuck sideways rush into the hospital like life is over. Of course I have bias in this, my dad being a doctor, but I think I would reach this opinion if he wasn't. The problem is that we need to reform the insurance companies that provide health care, not the entire health care system.

Obviously there are some lazy people who just abuse welfare and Medicaid type of programs, but if we increase the support of Medicaid it can help the many of those who really do work hard, and if we provide tax returns for those who have health care, similar to what McCain wants to do. That in part with health insurance company reforms would solve the problem adequately enough in my opinion, while preserving capitalism.

Another thing is that, with socialized health care, more socialist policies will likely come. Where is the motivation to pursue the American dream if it is socialist? Why spend the first 30 years of your life in medical school, which is pretty expensive and demanding, to make not a whole lot more than a less time consuming job? Obviously helping people is great, but the stress for the lower pay is just not worth it to most.

Now there are other things out there to bring up, so feel free to bring those up as well, I just don't have the time to type out all my thoughts about every aspect of politics.

[s.rwitt]

This is about your stand on policies such as socialized health care

Not only no, but **** no.

[Kiljan Arslan]

I prefer servicist healthcare, serve the US for 2 years, in either Americorps, the Marines, Army you get healthcare for life, also you then can have welfare, and that other stuff.

[BoJaN]

Anyways, am I really the only one who is bothered by the socialist changes that many democrats support in the U.S.? I mean the country was founded upon capitalist ideals, and America became the number one industrial power through laissez-faire capitalism. I could understand if we were having massive problems with capitalism that change would be needed, but I think we are doing pretty damn well. I mean, if it ain't broke don't fix it, right?

When I talk to democrats that support the socialist type changes, they seem to forget what has kept America going for so long, capitalism.

One thing that I really do not like is socialized health care. I mean you should not have to pay for my health care, and I should not have to pay for yours. Not only does it increase taxes, but increases the already huge amount of stress on hospital staff. People who have a fart stuck sideways rush into the hospital like life is over. Of course I have bias in this, my dad being a doctor, but I think I would reach this opinion if he wasn't. The problem is that we need to reform the insurance companies that provide health care, not the entire health care system.

Obviously there are some lazy people who just abuse welfare and Medicaid type of programs, but if we increase the support of Medicaid it can help the many of those who really do work hard, and if we provide tax returns for those who have health care, similar to what McCain wants to do. That in part with health insurance company reforms would solve the problem adequately enough in my opinion, while preserving capitalism.

Another thing is that, with socialized health care, more socialist policies will likely come. Where is the motivation to pursue the American dream if it is socialist? Why spend the first 30 years of your life in medical school, which is pretty expensive and demanding, to make not a whole lot more than a less time consuming job? Obviously helping people is great, but the stress for the lower pay is just not worth it to most.

Now there are other things out there to bring up, so feel free to bring those up as well, I just don't have the time to type out all my thoughts about every aspect of politics.

Just because its a system that worked in the past, does no mean it shouldn't go through change. We use to use Free Labour and during that period the economy flourished.

"Why spend the first 30 years of your life in medical school, which is pretty expensive and demanding, to make not a whole lot more than a less time consuming job? "

Because you love your job and want to help society and people?

"Where is the motivation to pursue the American dream if it is socialist?"

What made the American Dream more of an honourable idea than socialism? I mean socialism is based on the idea that you are helping your fellow man. To me that seems to be a better ideology than living the American Dream, which involves over-consuming while your fellow man can't afford to provide healthcare to their kids.

I know someones going to come in here and say - "Yeah socialism and communism dosn't work!" Maybe...but its a shame that we have give up on the idea.

[Talbaz]

I know someones going to come in here and say - "Yeah socialism and communism dosn't work!" Maybe...but its a shame that we have give up on the idea.

WRONG they do work

just not when people are involve

[Carach]

i am amused by this socialist-hating. a little social reform doesnt suddenly mean communism is infiltrating your society guys.

[Fibur]

i am amused by this socialist-hating. a little social reform doesnt suddenly mean communism is infiltrating your society guys.

Couldn't agree more. Considering this, it would mean I live in a kind of communist/stalinian country....which is obviously not the case.

[Sidmen]

Why do I have to laugh when people talk about capitalism being the thing that kept America going? Oh yea, its because it isn't what kept us going. Our huge natural resources, industrialized economy straight off the boat, good leadership, and patriotism is what has kept us going for so long.

Capitalism is the thing that 99% of failed countries used, it doesn't have much of anything to do with why a country is great or why it succeeds.

As for my stance on public healthcare, social security, and retirement services: I 'm for them. As someone on the wrong end of private healthcare I can attest to how crappy it makes you feel, and how stupid of a system it is. As it is, I'm in debt for the first seven years of my adult life because of one life saving surgery. This debt puts me in the position where I MUST work, and can't have a happy-go-lucky college experience.

[antares24]

This is about your stand on policies such as socialized health care. Lets just have a civil debate about it here.

Anyways, am I really the only one who is bothered by the socialist changes that many democrats support in the U.S.? I mean the country was founded upon capitalist ideals, and America became the number one industrial power through laissez-faire capitalism. I could understand if we were having massive problems with capitalism that change would be needed, but I think we are doing pretty damn well. I mean, if it ain't broke don't fix it, right?

When I talk to democrats that support the socialist type changes, they seem to forget what has kept America going for so long, capitalism.

One thing that I really do not like is socialized health care. I mean you should not have to pay for my health care, and I should not have to pay for yours. Not only does it increase taxes, but increases the already huge amount of stress on hospital staff. People who have a fart stuck sideways rush into the hospital like life is over. Of course I have bias in this, my dad being a doctor, but I think I would reach this opinion if he wasn't. The problem is that we need to reform the insurance companies that provide health care, not the entire health care system.

Obviously there are some lazy people who just abuse welfare and Medicaid type of programs, but if we increase the support of Medicaid it can help the many of those who really do work hard, and if we provide tax returns for those who have health care, similar to what McCain wants to do. That in part with health insurance company reforms would solve the problem adequately enough in my opinion, while preserving capitalism.

Another thing is that, with socialized health care, more socialist policies will likely come. Where is the motivation to pursue the American dream if it is socialist? Why spend the first 30 years of your life in medical school, which is pretty expensive and demanding, to make not a whole lot more than a less time consuming job? Obviously helping people is great, but the stress for the lower pay is just not worth it to most.

Now there are other things out there to bring up, so feel free to bring those up as well, I just don't have the time to type out all my thoughts about every aspect of politics.

have you ever heard of the Scandinavian countries? They have a lot of socialized service but still have a free economy.
Socialism doesn't equal communism in the economy, and socialized health care (from someone that live in a country where this system is in place) is a great thing, look at the sidmen example, there are countless people wo go bankrupt for paying for health care for them and their loved ones.
To me it seems that a lot of socialism haters idea come from ignorance of what socialism is.

[Carach]

america wouldnt be able to maintain the largest defence budget the world has ever seen (more than the rest of the world combined) if it were to make some social reforms though - i think thats the heart of the problem.

[Каие]

I champion it. But in a few minutes, s.rwitt, Joker, JP, and several others will gang bang me for like the tenth time...

[Princeps]

I mean the country was founded upon capitalist ideals,

Arguable.

Many classical liberals, for example, saw wage-labour as a form of slavery, and that dependency on wage (not on government) is appalling. That's a socialist arguement.

and America became the number one industrial power through laissez-faire capitalism.

Complete, utter nonsense. The American west was conquered because of vast state intervension, and the US economy and society was created, throughout, by often large scale state intervension and support. Furthermore, the US economy grew the most between 1933-1973 when US followed mixed economic polices and social democratic policies, high taxation and regulation. With the coming of the Reaganauts, US economy stagnated. The right-wing in the US doesn't advocate laissez-faire policies, because they know such policies would be disasterous, they advocate corporatism and corporate welfare state.

I could understand if we were having massive problems with capitalism that change would be needed, but I think we are doing pretty damn well.

Yes, no doubt, however, that's not because of the private sector. If the US public sector were to dissappear or diminish radically, the private sector would quickly collapse, beginning with the banks, because they're desperately dependant on your tax dollars to provide entrepreneurialism, protection, support and development, which are provided by the conservative nanny state.

I mean, if it ain't broke don't fix it, right?

Well, the US population is paying the price for structural failures of the state capitalism: the medical corporations are making big profits at the cost of the tax payer, because the US government is not allowed to use its bargaining power in purchasing drugs. Corporations are totalitarian, secrative institutions that care only about profit, not about health of people. Do you think these institutions would be the best for managing a healthcare sector?

When I talk to democrats that support the socialist type changes, they seem to forget what has kept America going for so long, capitalism.

No, they know better.

I mean you should not have to pay for my health care, and I should not have to pay for yours.

Well, we do live in a society. If you want to be an island, then go ahead and be, but most of the Americans, many doctors included, in fact 2/3 of Americans, support national healthcare, especially for children, even if it means they have to pay higher taxes as a result, which they probably wont, if socialized medicine is properly implemented. Because the current system is damn expensive, but the money is going to the wall-street.

Not only does it increase taxes, but increases the already huge amount of stress on hospital staff.

Actually, no. If the profit incentive is removed, and if the government is allowed to bargain, if the healthcare is provided by public institutions and by a streamlined public bureocracy (not by a complex totalitarian corporate bureocracy), the cost will be significantly lower to the tax payer. As we can see from all over the world where we've got public healthcare services. French healthcare was ranked as the best in the world, but it was also twice as cheap as the US model.

Where is the motivation to pursue the American dream if it is socialist?

Well, the American dream has often materialized because of large scale state intervension, if you actually look at history and not doctrine.

Why spend the first 30 years of your life in medical school, which is pretty expensive and demanding, to make not a whole lot more than a less time consuming job? Obviously helping people is great, but the stress for the lower pay is just not worth it to most.

Well, actually, doctors get paid pretty well in Britain, IIRC. They get pretty well paid here as well, where I live and where we've got "socialized medicine", they just don't get paid as much.

[JP226]

i am amused by this socialist-hating. a little social reform doesnt suddenly mean communism is infiltrating your society guys.

So we should only make a little bit of the economy not work versus the whole thing? Well, can't argue with that logic.

Many classical liberals, for example, saw wage-labour as a form of slavery, and that dependency on wage (not on government) is appalling. That's a socialist arguement.

Heh, they saw it a form of slavery in the sense of the labor theory of value. Menger and later Marshal explained how wage is determined. Infact, I asked you before what is a wage and why wage slave is an oxy moron. Care to answer it now?

The American west was conquered because of vast state intervension, and the US economy and society was created, throughout, by often large scale state intervension and support.

You've got to go more into detail with this one. I'd love to here you explain this.

Furthermore, the US economy grew the most between 1933-1973 when US followed mixed economic polices and social democratic policies, high taxation and regulation. With the coming of the Reaganauts, US economy stagnated. The right-wing in the US doesn't advocate laissez-faire policies, because they know such policies would be disasterous, they advocate corporatism and corporate welfare state.

And of course ww2 and the displacement of euro capital had nothing to do with it? Awfully narrow minded analysis.

the medical corporations are making big profits at the cost of the tax payer, because the US government is not allowed to use its bargaining power in purchasing drugs.

insulting. red tape, regulation and market barriers are all of a sudden capitalist?

Actually, no. If the profit incentive is removed, and if the government is allowed to bargain, if the healthcare is provided by public institutions and by a streamlined public bureocracy (not by a complex totalitarian corporate bureocracy), the cost will be significantly lower to the tax payer.

Bout choked on my water reading this. Do you know the role the profit incentive plays?

[Carach]

So we should only make a little bit of the economy not work versus the whole thing? Well, can't argue with that logic.

nations like egypt let people die on the street if they cant afford healthcare.

to have america banded in the same group as 3rd world nations is disgraceful JP. It is part of the governments duty to protect and provide for its citizens; that doesnt just mean ging off and invading far off countries tht are of questionable threat to the US with overwhelming military force.

To sum u up i think: selfish. But then thats what america's been brought up, from creation to modern day. As long as your ok it doesnt matter if thousands of others cant get the healthcare they should be entitled to because they cant afford it. (but thats apparently their own fualt, as you would argue..)


But your argument is amusing consideing your fast being caught by the dragon of the east economically - communists....but ofc, implementing some social reform would uttely destroy your economy

[JP226]

nations like egypt let people die on the street if they cant afford healthcare.

Egypt? That's one of your more socializd economies (second to maybe North Korea and cuba, as far as that whole region goes anyhow), great example there paco.

But your argument is amusing consideing your fast being caught by the dragon of the east economically

Fast being caught? Look, you don't know what the hell growth means outside of hearing some percentage rate you heard on the news. You don't know jack to make such an assertion.

[Carach]

Egypt? That's one of your more socializd economies (second to maybe North Korea and cuba, as far as that whole region goes anyhow), great example there paco.

I think you will find that is completely and utterly incorrect JP. Your pretty ****ing out of date on ur knowledge.

[Joker85]

nations like egypt let people die on the street if they cant afford healthcare.

to have america banded in the same group as 3rd world nations is disgraceful JP. It is part of the governments duty to protect and provide for its citizens; that doesnt just mean ging off and invading far off countries tht are of questionable threat to the US with overwhelming military force.

To sum u up i think: selfish. But then thats what america's been brought up, from creation to modern day. As long as your ok it doesnt matter if thousands of others cant get the healthcare they should be entitled to because they cant afford it. (but thats apparently their own fualt, as you would argue..)


But your argument is amusing consideing your fast being caught by the dragon of the east economically - communists....but ofc, implementing some social reform would uttely destroy your economy

People don't die on the streets in this country. Why on earth would you continue to parrot something you know not to be true? When I was a kid growing up (single parent) I had no insurance, yet I got treatment for numerous things that kids have to go to the hospital for. Not once was I refused treatment.

I really wish people would learn what the hell they are talking about before commenting on our system with broad based emotional appeals that have absolutely no basis in fact.

[s.rwitt]

I champion it. But in a few minutes, s.rwitt, Joker, JP, and several others will gang bang me for like the tenth time...

Because you don't "champion" it, you are obsessed with it. You will just not accept the fact that Americans DON'T WANT SOCIALISM.

I don't know why you are so fixated on it, but you need to get over it and move on.

[Каие]

Because you don't "champion" it, you are obsessed with it. You will just not accept the fact that Americans DON'T WANT SOCIALISM.

I don't know why you are so fixated on it, but you need to get over it and move on.

Do you think that maybe i should take a career in telling the future?

Like history has taught us, things always change, one day you will have socialism, and you will cry.

[Gary88]

As for my stance on public healthcare, social security, and retirement services: I 'm for them. As someone on the wrong end of private healthcare I can attest to how crappy it makes you feel, and how stupid of a system it is. As it is, I'm in debt for the first seven years of my adult life because of one life saving surgery. This debt puts me in the position where I MUST work, and can't have a happy-go-lucky college experience.

what you weren't able to go to college because of your debts or you are at college but you have to work to pay off your debts? either way it sucks its just one sucks more than the other.