Unit Armour and Weapon Upgrades

**Tigerfox** · February 06, 2008, 06:50 AM

Ok, I know this has been discussed in many other threads but I didn'T find one that really confirms anything.

First, I heard Weapon upgrades do not give +1 but +6 points to attack value. Is this correct? Has someone confirmed it? I'm short on time so I can't test it myself. Is this value correct for every unit?
That would make the Swordsmiths-guild very valuable and would be very unfair for factions that have a hard time getting it (turks, novgorod).

Second, I heard some time ago that armour upgrades don't give +1 point either but instead set the armour value according to the armour-type or rather waht the EDU staits in stat_armour_ex.
But now I heard that this isn't how it works either and one upgrade level gives about 2 or 2,5 points instead, which would make the few units that can recieve two or even three upgrades too powerfull I thin (Italian MAA would have between 12 and 13 armour, Byzantine Lancers 11 to 12,5).

Last I heard that you can't upgrade general's bodygards into late general's bodygards, like in Rome. Does that meand, that you never will get late era bodygards in the GC or that you just can not upgrade existing ones wiht early bodygards?

**pwijnands** · February 06, 2008, 08:00 AM

I think the +6 weapon upgrade is correct and that's why for instance Stainless Steel (and any other mod that carefully balances unit stats) removed this effect and gives an experience bonus instead.

About the armour upgrades I'm not sure. "stat_armour_ex" is commented out for all units so it doesn't have any effect. The upgrades work with the 2 or 2.5 points bonus for each upgrade, but the exact numbers have to be checked.

Don't know about the bodyguards, haven't been paying that much attention.

**Monsieur Alphonse** · February 06, 2008, 08:59 AM

You can't upgrade the bodyguard to a late bodyguard.

**N3rull** · February 06, 2008, 09:15 AM

Swordsmith's Guild giving +6 attack?
Come on, that's ***********t. I have never seen a weapon upgrade do any big difference and +6 is a pure joke.
edit. I take this one back. I ran a test battle of Feudal Knights (13/21) against dis. Conquistadores (16/22) and they were always losing. When I gave them a weapon upgrade, they started eradicating the conquistadores, despite still having all their stats lower (14/21 vs 16/22).
So hmmmm... there may be something to it.

But still I believe the rest of what I wrote:
Armour upgrades are a joke and they give 1 point, that's what I think. A dude claimed that they give more only because he THINKS IT SOUNDS SENSIBLE THAT WAY, i.e. he THINKS that if you upgrade something that wears mail with plate armour, then that unit's defense rating due to armour SHOULD be on par with any other plate-armoured unit.
And people believe it only because it sounds sensible.
But I've seen too many arguably-sensible things in this game and I'm REALLY sceptic about such arguments, that "it would make sense".
As for bodyguard - as been said, you can't upgrade them. I THINK ( ;p ) you just have to wait till the late era.

**pwijnands** · February 06, 2008, 09:49 AM

I did some quick tests as well and found that upgrading weapons gives +1 attack (no charge bonus) to melee attacks only.
Upgrading armour resulted in an increase of only 1 point of armour per upgrade. Did tests on levy spearmen, longbowmen, knights templar and dismounted men at arms.

N3rull:
Checked to see if there were differences between animation type, but both have the same swordsman animation. Did you get the same result continuously?

I think I might check to see if two identical units fighting eachother, one with upgrade and one without causes a huge difference.

Did some tests in Britannia with me (England) against the Baron's Alliances. Both received only 1 unit of levy spearmen, I received a weapon's upgrade, the AI didn't.
Results: (casualties on my side/casualties on AI side ; comments)
round 1: 68/73
round 2: 35/55 ; me on guardmode when receiving charge, disabled after engagement
round 3: 36/64 ; both sides charging into eachother
round 4: 58/65 ; normal march, receiving charge
round 5: 39/61 ; both sides charging into eachother
round 6: 20/40 ; receiving charge in normal mode
round 7: 30/46 ; receiving charge in loose formation
round 8: 24/64 ; charging in loose formation
round 9: 73/55 ; me in schiltrom

I only lost round 9. Might have to do some opposites later (the AI getting weapon upgrade).

**N3rull** · February 07, 2008, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by pwijnands

N3rull:
Checked to see if there were differences between animation type, but both have the same swordsman animation. Did you get the same result continuously?

I fought about 10 times, 5 without upgrades and 5 with my feudals having the upgrade. Every time the scenario was the same - I ordered my dudes to attack and pressed R ('run') immediately after the enemy started to run.

The effects were clear every single fight.
Without upgrade my feudals received a deserved beating. Every time.
With upgrade they delivered untold punishment on the conquistadores. Again, every single time. Both in charge and later, even though they still had all stats worse than conquis.

I suggest you all run each test more than once, because this game's battle results are far from repeatable, particularly when charges come into equation.

**Tigerfox** · February 06, 2008, 01:54 PM

Well I can say that armour upgrades must give more than 1 measly point. I did what the guy who first said that had done, too. I took me one unit of Bowmen (in this case turkish archers) and let them shoot on attacking spearmen.

First I took Italian Spear Militia (base armour 4), which lost about 16 men on the way to the bowmen in all three rounds.

then I took one unit of normal italian militia with bronze armour. They lost between 25 and 30 men on the way in three rounds.

When I finally gave them silver armour, the got near to the 16 men wiht between 17 and 20 men on the way,

seem to confirm that its more than 1 point but less than 2,5.

**Old Geezer** · February 07, 2008, 06:42 AM

There was a long discussion about this back in July or earlier. I think that Lusted explained that the weapons upgrade gives a +6 and armor gives a +2/2.5. Seems to be valid from what I have experienced.

**pwijnands** · February 07, 2008, 12:01 PM

I guess +6 and +2/2.5 it is then. Can't imagine someone like Lusted being that far off. It would also explain why my levy spearmen constantly beat the ones without weapon upgrades, although it was close in some occassions.

**N3rull** · February 07, 2008, 03:09 PM

Indeed.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...hlight=upgrade
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...hlight=upgrade

Well then:

Theorem
Armour upgrade gives 2-2,5 armour per level and weapon upgrade gives 6 attack per level.
Proof
Lusted sad so => theorem proven.
;p

**loquar** · February 08, 2008, 01:37 AM

This has realy opened my eyes.

I was always a bit too apathetic about upgrading armour and weapons thinking that the +1 wasnt worth all the shuffling between towns (only had armourers etc in every 4th or 5th town) but the +6 and 2-2.5 is a big difference.

Time for some more micro managing

**HANDsolo** · February 08, 2008, 03:15 AM

I only upgrade armour because it makes your units look cool. Other than that, it just makes the game easier.

**Tigerfox** · February 08, 2008, 05:21 AM

It were Lusted's threads in the .com forum that brought me to open this thread. I got the values of +6 and +2/2,5 from him but since I'm not satisfied with the words "I've tested it, you can believe me." from just one man I wanted more opinions on the matter.

Since I'm not a regular on TW-forums can someone tell me why Lusted's words are law?^^

And N3rull's second link brought up another question. Are there really different animation speeds for units with the same weapon?
Taht would make it much more complicated to judge units.

**pwijnands** · February 08, 2008, 06:48 AM

Combat animations for the same animation type have the same speed. I haven't found a way to speed up combat animation apart from assigning a new animation.

Lusted has lots of knowledge on game mechanics and modding. He's got a good reputation (judging from his huge amount of crowns) and you don't get that unless you make some excellent mod or similar.

**Sacc** · February 08, 2008, 10:15 AM

I'm glad it makes a difference, because I'm anal when it comes to upgrades. I do a lot of shuffeling and retraining. Not only because it makes my armies better, but also because I just have weird urges to make all my armies upgraded as best as possible.

**N3rull** · February 08, 2008, 10:40 AM

I'm also glad it makes a difference, because now I'm confident in the thought that English actually have something to defend themselves with against cavalry - a weapon upgraded + 3rd-level-armor upgraded Levy Spearmen not only look cool, but can do something against cavalry.
Seriously.
I tested it today morning - I've given AI a unit of Late Bodyguards and had them charge a unit of fully upgraded Levy Spearmen.
The cavalry was utterly smashed. Okay, maybe not utterly, they got killed and took 2/3 of the spearmen with them, but still - in my campaign games I always charge levy spearmen head on and they had always got smashed. It's good to know upgrading gives future to the units.

**Sacc** · February 08, 2008, 11:56 AM

Silly, you should never charge spearman

**N3rull** · February 09, 2008, 01:52 AM

Well in this game chargin heavy cavy into unupgraded 5/7 or 5/9 spearmen is nothing dangerous, only staying in for a prolonged melee may hurt. But it turned out in my test that chargin the same dudes, but upgraded, is certain death. Cool.