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  1. #1
    pseudocaesar's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Romans

    Ok so i think its fair to say that sometime before RS2 is released, the Roman faction needs to be re skinned, as a bare minimum at least the republican side of things. Now, i dunno about anyone else, but these really let the Romans down on this mod, these skins are a really common occurence, and arent unique or even that good to be brutally honest, im sure Tone could whip up a Roman roster to rival RTR.
    Now i've heard talk about merging the Principes and Hastati into a single unit. I have to disagree, right up until, and slightly after the Marian reforms, Hastati and Principes were a seperate unit. Scipio's reforms were of a more tactical nature, and he reformed the way the legion is basically commanded, more reliance on tactics, instead of brute force. The thing is also, the Hastati and Principes had no decorations or anything on their shields, just plain white or beigey coloured shields, with a vertical line of metal running the length, and that oval bit where the hand sits. the edges were rimmed with metal. They wore plain coloured cloth, again grey or light beige creamy colour.

    The Roman Legion (2nd century BC) For the second century BC we have accounts of a slightly reorganized legion.
    The hastati were still up front, carrying bronze breastplates. They now also wore purple and black feather plumes on their helmets, 18 inches in height, to increase their apparent height and appear more intimidating to the enemy. They carried a pilum, a well-crafted wooden spear with iron tip. The javelins that were carried now were short ones, only about four feet long, but with a head nine inches long, well hammered, but so fashioned that it bent on impact and could not be returned by the enemy.
    The other ranks of the legion were equipped in much the same manner except that they carried a long spear, the hasta, rather than the shorter pilum.
    The rorarii and accensii appear by now to have been done away with, having become velites. The velites did not form their own battle line but were divided up equally among all the maniples to compliment their numbers. It emerges that now it was the velites who were the more mobile troops who operated in the front of the army, stinging the enemy with their javelins, before retiring through the ranks of the hastati and principes


    --------VELITES---------

    --------HASTATI----------
    --------PRINCIPES---------
    ----------TRIARII----------
    The divisions were now of ten maniples. The figures are a bit unclear, but what is known is that the hastati maniple consisted of 120 men.
    Subdivisions of all three ranks (hastati, principes, triarii) was one of ten maniples. A maniple is defined as consisting of 160 men. (Although the hastati are supposedly had 120 per maniple. The figures are confusing. I assume that the maniple was brought its full numbers by the addition of velites. i.e. 120 hastati + 40 velites = 160 men = 1 maniple)
    The soldier now used the gladius, also known as 'the Spanish sword' to the Romans, apparently due to its origin. The iron helmets had now been replaced by bronze ones again, though of thicker metal.
    Each maniple was commanded by two centurions, the first centurion commanding the right, the second the left of the maniple.

    The cavalry force of 300 men was divided into ten squadrons (turmae), each with three decuriones in command.
    As more of the east came under Roman control, it was inevitable that an increasing number of citizens became involved in commercial enterprises and enforced army service would have been a considerable nuisance. Rome could no longer rely on a regular supply of legionaries from the simple sturdy country population. Service in Spain was particularly unpopular. The continuous series of local wars and uprisings, bad Roman leadership and heavy losses all meant hardship, possible death and little loot.
    In 152 BC popular pressure in Rome was such that the time-honoured method of enlistment was modified and men were chosen by lot for a period of six years continuous service.
    Another effect was an increased use of allied forces. When Scipio Aemilianus took Numantia in 133 BC Iberian auxiliaries accounted for two-thirds of his force. In the east the critical Battle of Pydna which ended the third Macedonian War was probably won by the allies, who with elephants crushed the left wing of Perseus and enabled the legionaries to split and outflank the Macedonian phalanx.
    The overseas expansion also had a serious effect on the citizens of the upper classes. New opportunities of enrichment and rising corruption saw to it that competent leadership became more and more difficult to find.
    The Gracchi Brothers attempted to halt the decline in the numbers recruitable for the army with land distribution and by extending the franchise to the Italian allies. But as this failed and the two brothers both were killed, the scene was set for the Social War and the arrival of Marius and Sulla.



    Now, the other thing, Triarii. il get back with that one lol.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Romans

    Very good idea to open a Romans thread, this seems like your hstorical strongpoint, pseudo. By the way:

    Now, the other thing, Triarii. il get back with that one lol.
    If my memory serves me correctly I believe there are no depictions of Triarii, or are there?
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  3. #3
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Romans

    We had quite a long discussion about this in another thread...regarding the merging of the Hastati and Principe. There is nothing to indicate that at this time they were distinquishable from each other in look or arms. The names really mean little that would indicate some military term..Hasta meaning 'sing', and Princips meaning 'first'. The Hastati were simply the 'younger men', who fought first and then fell back.

    Also, the tactic initiated against the Carthiginians was continued and gradually evolved into the later 'cohort' configuration. The idea I proposed was not to eliminate the difference, but to merge the two units as in fact they were. So the two units become 'The Principes & Hastati' with a clear explanation of why this is so.

    It isn't possible to render this kind of formation anyway, and saves a unit slot.

    As far as the current units, I agree that they are quite 'worn' in terms of use by a lot of mods....but there are few others. However, if you propose a bland, colorless, and unimaginative unit that looks like 'Mr. Clean' with a shield and pilum....not in this mod. There is almost nothing that survives to indicate color or extensive content as to what these units looked like. Every 'historical mod' has it's own interpretation...Res Gestae, Casus Belli, RTR, EB...if they were all historical...why are their units not all exactly the same?

    I personally preferred Riczu's Pre-Marian Romans to Ferres. I just thought they looked better. Guess a lot of it is just personal preferrence anyway.

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  4. #4
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Romans

    In reconsidering what I wrote above, I'm sorry if it sounded like I didn't want to discuss this. It's just that I have looked at what other 'historical' mods have done with the Romans, and I wonder who's right.

    The Casus Belli units look..well, I don't like them. Enough said.
    The RTR units aren't much different from Ferres.
    The EB units look Greek and plain.

    If we did anything to change them, could we not perhaps come up with something original? If there are so many 'historical' interpretations, then one of our own?

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Romans

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    If we did anything to change them, could we not perhaps come up with something original? If there are so many 'historical' interpretations, then one of our own?
    Perhaps we could get the early Romans to look more... Etruscan? That's the only other culture that really influenced them besides the Greeks and other Italics, and surely the Romans didn't look like the barbaric (other) Italics.
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  6. #6
    pseudocaesar's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Romans

    yeh but the plainest truth is, republican romans were kinda boring to look at. they were citizen soldiers levied in times of crisis, so they just wore plain tunics, standard armour, helmets and swords. perhaps we could do some patterns on the shield, but just like a few nice curvy lines, not pictures of scorpions or anything.

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  7. #7
    pseudocaesar's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Romans

    ok so i bought a book today, Battles of the Ancient World. and i got a few good pictures out of it, a really nice Triarii aswell, i think is perfect.
    First up is the shield design for the Equites Romanus;


    now, we have the shield design used by both the Hastati and Principes, its a nice pattern, and would look really nice when done, im thinkin a grey blue sort of shield with pale yellow/orange pattern. who knows,


    and here is a kickass lookin Triarii!

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  8. #8
    pseudocaesar's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Romans

    now i heartily encourage you to laugh at what your about to see, but oh well, i actually won an art competition in high school lol, but thats another story. now dvk said he wanted a unique take on roman units, something not boring yet historically accurate. ok, so here is my mock up of Roma Surrectum's republican romans lol.
    a few details worth noting, i took the shield design and added the cool wolf head in the hand holder bit, also he has a greave on his left leading leg. They have purple and black feather plumes as well, 18 inches tall.


    With the Principes i went all out haha, nah. but the principes at this stage wore better and more decorated armour than their camillan counterparts. in case your having trouble deciphering the dreadful drawing, i put the famous she wolf on the shield (you know the one that supposedly raised Romulus and Remus). another option would be too have it in the centre of the shield and the curvy lines at either end. also note the way the hamata joins in the middle at the chest, thats a double layer. he also wears a greave on his leading leg and the same design of helmet feathers, except with a plume in the centre.

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  9. #9
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Romans

    Hmmmm....now I'm starting to like this.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Romans

    Me too, the best I can draw is stick figures. Nice work Pseudo!
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Romans

    I actually like the white color scheme from the pic up top; white Romans, that's definitely an original look!



  12. #12
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Romans

    I like that Triarii too...cool lookin' gut.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Romans

    What about the idea of having regional units. For example, the Republican units recruited in northern Italy could have a slightly Etruscan look, while those in central Italy could have more of a Samnite influence, etc? So you could have 3 or 4 different types of these units, each representing a different 'flavor' of Italian recruits...



  14. #14
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    Default Re: Romans

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryfunk View Post
    What about the idea of having regional units. For example, the Republican units recruited in northern Italy could have a slightly Etruscan look, while those in central Italy could have more of a Samnite influence, etc? So you could have 3 or 4 different types of these units, each representing a different 'flavor' of Italian recruits...
    Great idea...I'll start removing Armenia right now! Geez I wish we had a hundred more slots.

    Answer me this...what is historical about Rome's cavalry as presented by RTW. OK, the equites are historical. Rome's crappy cav.

    Roman Medium Cavalry? Historical? Not?

    Roman Legionary Cavalry? Historical as presented? Not?

    Roman Praetorian Cavalry? Historical as presented, or not?

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Romans

    I would actually reduce the 35 legions to a more manageable number, say 15-20, and then add to the number of Republican units to add some variety there. Part of the reason the legion AOR is confusing people is that there are just too many different legions. I think simplifying the number a bit would create a clearer system, be more fun to play, and also open the slots for some Republican variety -- which would add even more to the fun, since much of the game is spent playing with those units anyway.

    Far as I know, none of those cav units are historical, only the Equites and the 'nobles', who fought mounted (i.e. general's bodyguard). But I'm not 100% sure of that. What was the cav like after the reforms?



  16. #16

    Default Re: Romans

    Yes, who likes Legio I Minerva anyway?
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Romans

    Quote Originally Posted by Drtad View Post
    Yes, who likes Legio I Minerva anyway?
    Well I deserved that, didn't I?

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  18. #18
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
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    Default Re: Romans

    I don't think it's an issue of too many, but an issue of where. Having played pretty far into a Roman campaign, I know what the issue is. First off, there's not a readily visible way to see where you can recruit them. Second, once you do recruit them, there's the like problem of remembering where you did...because you can't SEE where you did. And then there's the confusion of too many Legions in one area\region. This will be solved with the Legion names in the city names.....like it or not, this is one of the biggest fan complaints. The other will be to spread them out so they are available 'strategically', moreso, than historically. That doesn't mean the former negates the later....but I've already made massive changes to this in RS2.

    As to cutting them to 15-20...not likely. You're forgetting that the Legions were the 'earmark' of this mod, along with the Free People. But I am thinking of reducing them to 30.....the highest number ever maintained by Rome.
    But you understand this is like cutting my heart out....I wrote this mod around these Legions, and cutting any of them out will be very difficult. However, five less gives 10 free slots. That's near a whole faction!!

    Also, Cherry, it's a known fact that people prefer playing with the Legions. I tried my best to make the Pre-Marian units interesting...(and brand new ones could do that)...but there are so many people who get the reforms in 30 years, or actually play to get them as fast as they can...or just modify the mod so they can. I don't blame them..the Legions in this mod are awesome! Why play with the pre-Marian units very long?

    This is another reason I want to merge the Hastati and Principe into one unit. Playing with the pre-Marian units is (mentally) a problem. Why? Because every player knows that he'll have better and FEWER units to worry about when he\she gets the Legions. You won't have to use the weaker Hastati, and worry about deploying or basically sacrificing a good part of your army because their useless. Let's face it, in RTW the Hastati are treated as fodder.

    But let's say we have a couple slots to create an 'Italian' Hastati\Principe unit, and a second non-Italian (recruitable outside Italy or Rome's home AOR).
    This nets a Hastati\Principe unit described in text as a 2nd Punic War tactic to make the two look like one, and it will have the stats of the Principes. Then, you have an army with only two elements, this unit and the Triarii..with velites and cav....that actually looks like and plays like a Legion does. Quite a few players have expressed that they like playing with the VE Legions better...it's just a simpler army, and it gives you the 'mental impression' of playing a Legion.

    I know it's bizarre, but I think it will be more popular. Also, there will be more men in these units, and correspondingly much higher cost\maintenance.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Romans

    I don't think it's an issue of too many, but an issue of where.
    It's both. A system with 35 moving parts is inherently more complex than one with 15 or 20. The question is, does the added complexity add more to the fun than it takes away? I would say no; beyond a certain point you're just adding legions for the sake of adding legions.

    Also, Cherry, it's a known fact that people prefer playing with the Legions. I tried my best to make the Pre-Marian units interesting...(and brand new ones could do that)...but there are so many people who get the reforms in 30 years, or actually play to get them as fast as they can...or just modify the mod so they can. I don't blame them..the Legions in this mod are awesome! Why play with the pre-Marian units very long?
    If the pre-Marian units had the same diversity, the same great skins, and a unique, fresh look that only RS offered, wouldn't people be more likely to enjoy playing with them more? I think the stress you've placed on the legions at the expense of the pre-Marian units has become a self-fulfilling prophecy -- players want to rush to the Reforms because you put more effort into the post-Reform units. If you balance the mod out a bit, the fun will also be balanced out. And that will result in more historical gameplay, because as you know the game almost always triggers the Reform far too early.



  20. #20

    Default Re: Romans

    if they are removed DVK, you should make a mini mod to include them back in (at the expense of some faction or other, i don't really care ) i wants me romans!!!
    besides, why would we want all this italian/non-italian stuff going on? we originally had italian hastati, but they were removed cause they wasted a slot, as did the samnites. let's not go wasting precious legion slots on them, eh?
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