DISCUSSION: The Latin States

[CtrlAltDe1337]

Before I start, I know that you guys have not promised to add anymore factions, and the mod is great as-is. Think of this more of a discussion

But onto my topic though: I've been playing the last few days and have found that the ERE really needs a strong opponent to appear in their backyard. The 4th Crusade event is perfect for this; the only problem is that there is no faction behind it. This is fine for now (since they only attack Constantinople), but extending the map *slightly* to the west and adding the Latin Empire as a sort of "western Mongols" would be fairly easy to implement and would really improve the game in many ways, namely,

1) It would severely weaken the ERE as it happened historically

2) It would add another "Invasion" faction that could possibly conquer quite a bit of land, spicing up the west a bit

3) It would not require much work to add the faction in. You could start with a mix of KoJ and vanilla skins and if you guys felt like reskinning/modeling them later you could, but its not urgent considering it would be an emerging (unplayable) faction.

4) It would not require the addition of anymore factions (the way you have the map tilted is perfect for just including the edge of Greece, see map: http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...mapforbc-1.jpg [BC's may be even more tilted than that]) but you could easily include the important cities of the Latin Empire (Athens, Thessalonica, Andravida). The Italian holdings are already there (Crete and Rhodes) so thats not a problem.

I think this would really be cool and would spice up the gameplay a lot. Please give it some thought and see what you think.

[Miraj]

OK, I'll make this the official BC discussion thread for a future potentional faction for BC.

[doorknobdeity]

I sort of liked the way they statted the Mongols in vanilla-- the initial stacks, with all their experience and awesome generals, can wipe out pretty much any equivalent stack, but once those run out and green units are trained, they don't do so well, encouraging the faction to hit hard in the beginning, but eventually be beaten back.

[Sir Nicholas Altman]

I completly agree. The 4th Crusade needs a faction. So if they tahe Constatinopolis they can settle and grow. ERE is really too strong and needs a wetern danger.

[Baron Thunder-ten-tronckh]

That would be pretty incredible. But is there any way that the KoJ and the emerging faction could have perfect relations with each other? Because there are supposed to be reinforcements for KoJ. So if they had perfect relations, and/or trade agreement/alliance, they may not attack each other, and the two catholic nations would rise to supremacy.

[NoFrag]

That would be pretty incredible. But is there any way that the KoJ and the emerging faction could have perfect relations with each other? Because there are supposed to be reinforcements for KoJ. So if they had perfect relations, and/or trade agreement/alliance, they may not attack each other, and the two catholic nations would rise to supremacy.

Or the 4th crusade could be a vassal of KoJ?

[Son of Mao]

I think it wuld be cool if the fourth crusade could have a chance of either becoming Latin States or might not go off and sack some city and don't get in trouble with the big papa in Rome and decide to follow the origional plan and become reinforcements for the KoJ

[teh.frickin.pope]

Wouldn't the KoJ hate them? I mean reinforcements that all of a sudden attack someone you aren't fighting and decide to settle down instead of help you...I'd be pretty pissed off myself.

[Fetrik]

Make the 4th crusade into venice or sicily. If they manage to settle you got a faction already. And yeah, make them butt buddies with KoJ. Alliance from the beginning?

[CtrlAltDe1337]

*bump*

I think the LS would be quite interesting and would provide a nice challenge for the ERE. Their faction roster could be quite interesting with a mix of European tech. Since the Crusade was mainly composed of French and Germans, I was thinking that the roster could have very good heavy cavalry, decent sword infantry, decent spears and, and good polearm infantry (albeit few in quantity). They probaby shouldn't have any horse archers and have foot archers about like the KoJ, Mainly x-bows and some ok regular bow archers. This would give the ERE a different kind of opponent and would force the Roman player to adapt to different combat situations on both their fronts.

Also, I was thinking that you could spawn some rebels every so often in the Greece area (assuming you do extend the map & stuff) to represent the various brigands, rebels, and outsiders who attacked. I don't know right off hand how the western border of the ERE faired at this time, perhaps someone could see if they ever faced a large invasion from the west?

Thoughts/comments/suggestions anyone?

[Hansa]

Make the fourth crusaders rebels and add the principality of Antioch. Not to much work as their unit list could be compiled of much the same units as KOJ. There should also perhaps be added a few late era units to the KOJ faction, no need to speculate in possible syncretic east-west units, just give them late era western units should they survive, I am thinking professional non-noble units and plate armored folks.

ED. On a general note id like to see the AOR system becoming far more extensive, I have only played as the romans and have seen no new interesting units to recruit once I have expanded. I could also recruit nothing in Caffa, an area the romans historically held for periods. I assume this applyes for most factions.

Note: I haven't played that much, so I may have gotten the wrong overall picture.

[Miraj]

I'm not at all convinced Antioch is a better choice than an emerging Latin States faction. The Latin states seem a lot more historically important and an excellent addition game-play wise.

[Hansa]

I'm not at all convinced Antioch is a better choice than an emerging Latin States faction. The Latin states seem a lot more historically important and an excellent addition game-play wise.

I get your point quite clearly, and let me as usual point out that this is just my personal opinion and that I will be happy either way. I favour Antioch as it is there from the start and would make an immediate impact while the latin states would firstly be unplayable, and secondly, happen as a result of quite specific events directly influenced by history turning out as it did, and 3rdly could in theory in my opinion easily not have suceeded.

As you are a historically inspired rather than total accuracy mod, perhaps you should the rename Koj the crusader states or Outremer and give them Antioch. This will be somewhat at odds with realism, but so is having Antioch rebel, and (correct me if I am wrong) but you have already added the county of Tripoli to the Koj which is also not utterly correct history wize.

And of course great work on the mod. Until a TR mod comes out, and I expect that to be a BTW mod by 2020, this mod will probably be the best out there for MTW2.

[Tunch Khan]

The Latin Empire would be an excellent addition to BC. It's a much needed hand to weaken the monstrous ERE.



The Latin Empire or Latin Empire of Constantinople (original Latin name: Imperium Romaniae, "Empire of Romania") is the name given by historians to the Crusader state founded by the leaders of the Fourth Crusade on lands captured from the Byzantine Empire after their sack of Constantinople in 1204. The Empire was intended to supplant the Byzantine Empire as titular successor to the Roman Empire in the east, with a Western Catholic emperor enthroned in place of the Byzantine Greeks. Baldwin IX, Count of Flanders, was crowned Emperor as Baldwin I on 16 May 1204.

Language(s):Latin, Old French
Religion:Roman Catholic



Latin Emperors of Constantinople, 1204–1261

• Baldwin I (1204–1205)
• Henry (1206–1216), his brother
• Peter (1216–1217)
• Yolanda (1217–1219), Henry's sister
• Robert I (1219–1228), crowned 1221, their son
• Baldwin II (1228–1261), crowned 1240, died 1273, his brother, with...
  • John of Brienne, emperor regent (1229–1237), his father-in-law

Latin Emperors of Constantinople in exile, 1261–1383

• Baldwin II (1261–1273), in exile from Constantinople
• Philip I (1273–1283), his son
• Catherine I (1283–1308), his daughter, with...
• Charles of Valois (1301–1308), her husband
• Catherine II (1308–1346), their daughter, with...
• Philip II (1313–1332), her husband
• Robert II (1346–1364), their son
• Philip III (1364–1373), his brother
• James of Baux (1373–1383), his nephew
• James willed his titular claims to Duke Louis I of Anjou, also claimant to the throne of Naples, but Louis and his descendants never used the title.

Baldwin II (1217-1273) was the last Latin emperor of Constantinople.

[John I Tzimisces]

I get your point quite clearly, and let me as usual point out that this is just my personal opinion and that I will be happy either way. I favour Antioch as it is there from the start and would make an immediate impact while the latin states would firstly be unplayable, and secondly, happen as a result of quite specific events directly influenced by history turning out as it did, and 3rdly could in theory in my opinion easily not have suceeded.

As you are a historically inspired rather than total accuracy mod, perhaps you should the rename Koj the crusader states or Outremer and give them Antioch. This will be somewhat at odds with realism, but so is having Antioch rebel, and (correct me if I am wrong) but you have already added the county of Tripoli to the Koj which is also not utterly correct history wize.

And of course great work on the mod. Until a TR mod comes out, and I expect that to be a BTW mod by 2020, this mod will probably be the best out there for MTW2.

Antioch was a weak state, and spent most of the 13th century being beaten up by and controlled by the Kingdom in Cilicia, though the Armenians failed to ever actually conquer the city or unite the domains by marriage.

[Dead*Man*Wilson]

Devs,

Hypothetically, what sort of difference in roster would the Latin States have over KOJ?

[teh.frickin.pope]

Devs,

Hypothetically, what sort of difference in roster would the Latin States have over KOJ?

They would probably have stronger foot knights because of the Germans, most low tiers being made up of natives, probably still Byz inspired, a lot of Venetian units; but that's just a guess.

Hmm, off to the Internets to do some research.

[Ahiga]

They would probably have stronger foot knights because of the Germans, most low tiers being made up of natives, probably still Byz inspired, a lot of Venetian units; but that's just a guess.

Hmm, off to the Internets to do some research.

What I've read elsewhere is that while Jerusalem had a critical lack of both knights and horses (Which is not quite represented by us. More fun our way, unless you like highly rare knights which can be felled by light cheap foot and horse archers. :3), the Latin Empire simply lacked in horses. After Saladin's success and the consequent defensive nature of Outremer, many more crusading knights preferred a nice Greek Fiefdom to some impoverished levantine castle.

Crossbows and Spears would still make up a mainstay of the army, but you'd get native javelin and bow options, along with native roman light/medium cavalry, and of course Knights. To make them more unique, they could probably get a few halberds...not really accurate, but it would help offer a contrasted experience to Jerusalem, having Jerusalem reflect pre 13th century European Traditions and the LS Post 13th century practices.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

Map of 1204: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Byzantium1204.png
Map of 1265: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:S...empire1265.jpg


Constantinople, Latin Empire of, 1204–61, feudal empire established in the S Balkan Peninsula and the Greek archipelago by the leaders of the Fourth Crusade (see Crusades) after they had sacked (1204) Constantinople; also known as the empire of Romania (not to be confused with the modern nation Romania). Its secular and ecclesiastic governments were carefully divided among the Crusaders and their Venetian creditors. It was on both sides of the Dardanelles; its rulers were also suzerains of the kingdom of Thessalonica, the principality of Achaia, and other fiefs. Baldwin I, Henry of Flanders, Peter of Courtenay and his wife, Yolande, Robert of Courtenay, John of Brienne, and Baldwin II were rulers. The empire declined immediately after its creation, being beset by the Greek emperors of Nicaea (see Nicaea, empire of) and despots of Epirus (see Epirus, despotate of), by the Bulgars under Ivan II (Ivan Asen), by the Turks, by discord among the Westerners, and by Greek resistance. In 1222, Thessalonica fell to the despot of Epirus. By 1224 the Nicaean Emperor John III had recovered Asia Minor. Constantinople, nearly captured by Ivan Asen in 1234, fell to Emperor Michael VIII in 1261. Venice, however, retained possession of most of the Greek isles, the duchy of Athens passed under Catalan rule, and Achaia stayed in the hands of the Villehardouin family until 1278.

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0813333.html

Quite interesting; perhaps the map should include Arta (the despot of Epirus' capital, would be ERE territory in BC)? That is quite a ways to extend the map, but *if* you ever wanted to include Bulgaria too it would work. But back on topic...

[Keravnos]

Deffinitely include Epeiros on the map...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Born and raised in Epeiros