Medieval total no Diplomacy : issues about diplo

[aleph2007]

Hello,
I have a couple of serious problems with the way diplomacy works in this game.

Having done 3 campains (SS 5.1b) so far, I noticed :

1) Neighbour factions always seem to preferentially attack me (player faction) whithout regards of their own interest. an example : I played France. England was at war with France and Germany. Over 100 turns they kept trying to retake the over defended city of Bruges while surrounding German settlements were almost left empty.

2) Factions often blindly follow their allies in stupid acts : I quickly invaded throne of Aragon. That triggered a war with Spain which was a former ally. They broke their alliance attacking me although they were much much less powerful and had no chance to succeed. Once triggered, no way I could get them back as friends. I offered them 3 SETTLEMENTS and 2000 gold per turns /10 turn. THEY refused. This is totally surrealistic !

3) Dying faction keep fighting against their own interest. Ok, you nearly destroy a faction, they have one settlement left, no force or so, the choice is simple you keep fighting and you live or you die. They should accept peace whatever the conditions (even paying tribute) but they always refuse and then disappear. This was not the case in Rome TW I think.

4) Time frame over wich reputation is set is much much to long. You fought a faction 200 years ago, 3 kings have past since this time, you changed your alliances, you fought common enemies, ect and your reputation has not move at all ? Maybe diplomacy could be scripted a bit more and then linked with changes of king. New king = new opportunity to negotiate treaties.

5 ) A dying faction (played or not) that has several allies could be able to do a "call to arms" of their allies and they may answer depending of their own situation/power. That would be fun, creating massive battles to save a kingdom.

6) That would be great to have more things to offer/exchange, Diplomatic choices are pretty poor. One could offer a priest, an army, a general, a merchant, but also an option to fight a common enemy like : peace/alliance for my contribution to your war. Also and that would be so great, the possibility of trading a FUTURE settlement like peace/alliance for me taking this city and giving it to your faction whithin n turns.

Now maybe I missed mods or content about this. So, could people tell me if they agree/observed weird things too ? Is there anything that can be found/done to improve this ?

[Banzai!]

I like suggestion 3. I belive that it could be easily implemented in a script since we already have event scripts for kings dying.

[bobfish]

I wish your reputation did reset, at least partially when your King died, would make things a lot more interesting. Some personality traits too, so France doesn't behave exactly the same over 200 years, each King brings their own traits to spice things up.

1 is simply down to how the AI expands, taking neighbouring settlements first.

2 is the AI ganging up on the player, maybe that can be fixed?

[Gorrrrrn]

I've been playing a SS5.1 playing on M/M, campaign as HRE. I'm in year 1507 (approx) with another 35 turns to go :

I have alliances with Denmark, Norway, Sicily, France, Papal States, Hungary, Aragon, Templars, Teutonic order, Leon-Castille, Mongols. Some of those alliances have lasted throughout the game - nearly all are my neighbours. I've never attacked an ally and the Pope is my friend. No sign of neighbours ganging up on me. I've got nearly 60 regions under my control and am at war with kievan Rus' (Novogord has been destroyed), Scotland (England destroyed), and am looking to take on the Turks as both the Moors and most lately Egypt have been destroyed. Lithuania, Poland, Venice also put to the sword. I'm neutral with Turkey, Portugal and the Byzzies.

It's been a tough campaign but very enjoyable and Quarks traits fix seems to have cured the civil war every time you get a successful Emperor.

So I'm at the centre of a system of alliances that hangs together very well (they rarely attack eachother) and there's enough factions on the outside for us all to have a go at. For example after Scotland attacked Denamrk and Norway, I attacked the Scots who had taken Arhus and then went over and took Edinburgh, York and Nottingham (last from England) - with Norse and Danish armies alongside me (not through overt diplomacy, we were just after the same targets. Elsewhere Leon-Castille have taken Exeter and Cardiff and Norway has Inverness. None of us has tripped over each other so far, and there's still 3 regions in Ireland we can grab.

As ever it's difficult to generalise about this game, some experiences seem so completely opposite to others. From my experience I would say the diplomacy seems to working OK, or at least not in need of major changes.

[pwijnands]

My biggest gripe with diplomacy is the lack of weak factions to admit defeat, as described by lots of people before on these forums.
It's also silly how hesistant allies are at giving me military access, even when my intent is to help them when they are besieged. I have to resort to recapturing the settlement from our mutual enemy and then giving it back (I can ask for military access when I do this, but by then it's to late).
I would very much like to be able to make contracts of some sorts. So you could coordinate attacks on a mutual enemy and not following through would affect global reputation.

I don't like the suggestion of having my reputation change when a new king appears. I spend lots of effort in maintaining an immaculate standing. When needed I even let prisoners go if they were reinforcements from a town (so if I executed I could take the town freely). Kings don't reign long enough in this game to implement this, I might implement it in my games (I made the maximum age for characters 190 years). At least it should be possible to fix it.

[bobfish]

Trouble is your reputation is taken out of context. Yes I mercilessly slaughter any who invade my lands, but that doesn't mean I'd break an alliance or attack my friends.

[Munchies]

I don't have the same problems with diplomacy. Like was stated above... Every game can be different depending on actions.

My latest game as Ireland on VH/VH, I allied with Scotland and England from the very beginning (and a little time later the Templars). Now many years later Our little triangle of friendship is still going strong while I crusade against the muslims.
England has recently started building up it's forces on my borders (I have York) in makeshift forts, but it appears only as a defensive move.


About the military access... Yes, I also find it a little difficult to acquire. I had a 10 heart princess (she started with 10 hehe) try to acquire access with the Templars to no avail. No matter what I do, or what I offer, they refuse.
We are on VERY good terms and have been allied a long time...

[aleph2007]

I don't have the same problems with diplomacy. Like was stated above... Every game can be different depending on actions.

Not even with dying factions (one city left and about to be taken) refusing peace while they can't even defend themselve ?
At this stage, would not it be great to have the choice : destroy or collect tribute ?

[Munchies]

Dunno.
When I have a kingdom on its knees and I am knocking on their door... I just finish them off.

I will offer for a kingdom to be my vassal next time to see if I can get it to work.

[pwijnands]

About the military access... Yes, I also find it a little difficult to acquire. I had a 10 heart princess (she started with 10 hehe) try to acquire access with the Templars to no avail. No matter what I do, or what I offer, they refuse.
We are on VERY good terms and have been allied a long time...

I always get a message saying how they don't trust me enough and that I will attack their forces once they are in my regions.

I was looking for a mod for Rome yesterday and found the Extended Greek Mod and they used a script that forced the AI to accept any deal you offered when you clicked on the "show me" button. Maybe they could make something similar for Stainless Steel.

[WRL]

I'd like to add that I agree with the comments regarding a 'dieing' nation, the maintenance costs holding far off lands that require time and money to build up may not be worth it, but the movement of troops and tribute for a return of your former lands and vassalage to me sounds very reasonable given death is the alternative, and have found this to be a frustrating problem as well. And since holding out to the last is a personality trait, given only certain leaders in any state, have it, work it in as a trait, give me liberty of give me death, would be a great name for the trait.

My two cents...

[Lamanz]

My biggest gripe with diplomacy is the lack of weak factions to admit defeat, as described by lots of people before on these forums.

"Give me liberty, or give me death!"
-Patrick Henry

Ok, that might make sense for, say, Scotland, but I agree that not every country should be looking at politics in that manner.

[spanish_emperor]

"Give me liberty, or give me death!"
-Patrick Henry

Ok, that might make sense for, say, Scotland, but I agree that not every country should be looking at politics in that manner.

Exactly, and not everyone was so patriotic about their country. Some were just greedy slugs who wouldn't care at all about the people as long as they were in power....and they were a majority.

There werent many William Wallace and there still aren't.
many were just simply corrupt.

"power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"

[spanish_emperor]

I totally agree with all your suggestions....if someone could make them happen this truely would be the ultimate game and i would never get bored of it.

[burninglegionx]

well, i don't know, but i'm using ss5.1 + lusted's latest experimental AI,vh/vh as Byzantine, i used 4 fullstack to seige hungary's 4 settlements (one stack / settlement), and during their turn, they asked for ceasefire, i 'counter offered' vasslage, and they gladly accepted it. But then, Papacy wasn't as smart, so i wiped them out. So, i guess some factions just like dying than living enslaved?

[Hrimfar]

Id like to see a more defensive AI that focus all power on defending the central lands belonging to the faction´and on gaining sertain scripted regions. That way players and other AI forces would have to fight stacks of defending soldliers when trying to invade the central regions of a faction.

Is this possible to script?

I also would like the AI to have scripted invasionplans; the turks wand constantinople, spain and france want the flanders. Castile-Aragon want the iberian peninsula, venice want the balcan, hungary want balcan too etc.

[aleph2007]

Id like to see a more defensive AI that focus all power on defending the central lands belonging to the faction´and on gaining sertain scripted regions. That way players and other AI forces would have to fight stacks of defending soldliers when trying to invade the central regions of a faction.

Is this possible to script?

I also would like the AI to have scripted invasionplans; the turks wand constantinople, spain and france want the flanders. Castile-Aragon want the iberian peninsula, venice want the balcan, hungary want balcan too etc.

And England wants France of course !!!

[spanish_emperor]

Do you know what.....the thing that absolutely BOTHERS me most about m2tw is how you can't do proposal 6) of aleph_2007. And What bothers me most is having a neutral or ally AI army in my territory for turn after turn.

I would love to be able to get a diplomat and tell them "get the ******* out of my territory you annoying brat"

I would party for that

[WRL]

All though a nice 'token of generosity' at the beginning of negations usually puts the other party at 'appreciative' as their mood and therefore you are more likely to get your deal, it's ugly politics is a game of money sometimes, I just wish we could trade individual resources, enter more specific trade agreements, embargo's etc. etc.

[aleph2007]

Actually, this debat gave me a new idea about what could be done to really change diplomacy in this game : Alternate conditions of victory !!!! http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=145132