Laying the Blame

[Sokar Rostau]

I see a lot of threads and individual posts complaining about, or offering solutions to, various bugs and problems with both M2TW and Kingdoms. With few exceptions people seem to complain that CA are lazy, stupid or whatever other comment they can think of to convey incompetence.

I also play Neverwinter Nights and have both expansions. NWN is developed by BioWare and published by Atari. There is no debate that NWN has bugs, however there are quite a few problems that are caused by Atari and BioWare has no control over them. Several editions of NWN or it's expansions are missing entire folders - and I don't mean a paltry 24Kb file either, the Heroes Edition of NWN is missing 650Mb of files which means you cannot play the game at all until you download the folders from BioWare. In other editions Atari neglected to include NPC voice sets, ambient music and some textures all of which would cause the game to crash.

So, I'm wondering, how many of the problems people seem to be having are CA's fault and how many are Sega's?

[N3rull]

I have NWN with expansions amd have walked it through and didn't have any troubles. Except the last moments of Hordes.. where the final fight with Mefisto bugged and turned unwinnable.
I haven't heard of your missing stuff problems, or the fact atari had to do with any of them.
Link to some source if you will, please. I'd be happy to read about it.


As for M2TW, there is no doubt the problem's are CA's fault, because they have nothing to do with the way the game's been released or burned on the dvds. It's the problem with the game itself.
The best proof that the game's been done crappily is the sheer fact that making mods ( = modifying existing files ) may resolve some issues the unmodded game has, like some AI idiocies which are extremely unnerving.
I have no idea how SEGA's actions could make Cavalry charges become suspended and cause a massacre among anything with pikemen included, soldiers walk in every direction instead of where you ordered them or archers not shooting.
The only possible fault of SEGA's might have been a pressure put on CA to release Medieval2 and move to another projects. It's possible that CA weren't given enough time to test run Medieval 2, because their contracts and stuff made them move to something else. However, as a leader of such a company as Creative Assembly (which is, let's face it, known mainly for Total Wars) I'd have NEVER let someone else order me to release a bugged and unfinished game (see Harry, I'm trying! Even though some !@#$ would have fit here...). I'd have done everything in my power to make sure the game is done well and has been tested and only then I'd release it. I wish everyone had the Blizzard's "when it's ready" standard of releasing games. Yeah I know Blizz are publisher and developer in one, which takes some stress off them, but come on Dev's, the games are not just products of yours! They're your label, the measure of your reliability and quality as a company! Releasing crap is *really* a worse idea than saving 1 month on test-runs.

Anyway, from the patch talks on totalwar.org's forums it seems CA has corrected many bugs already for the next patch, which means they screwed it up in the first place.

Ending the post, I would say that the fault is threefold:
- that SEGA is aiming for making money, not keeping quality of their products.
- that CA are sissies enough to submit and obey to what they tell them, even when it means releasing crap and keeping it a crap for over a year.
- and that CA took a ready engine from Rome:TW and screwed it in a way that is unimaginable.

As a fourth fault that goes to CA I would mention their irritating behaviour.
Whenever someone from CA publishes anything on the net, their statements are full of pride and selfishness, as if they were the best of the best and releasing games made without flaws.
Well HELLO there, sorry to bring you down, but YOU'RE RELEASING CRAP.
CAN SOMEONE HEAR ME?? EARTH TO CA!!!
YOU - ARE - SCREWING - YOUR - JOB!!!
WAKE UP!!!!!

[Mythlacar]

N3rull, I don't mean to butt in, but if the game sucks so bad, and CA is such a horrible company for ruining your trust in them, why in the holy hell do you troll a forum devoted to their games?

If you don't like Medieval 2, or CA in general, GTFO the forum, as your highly inflamatory trolling posts are simply a waste of everyones time.

[Harry Lime]

@Mythlacar

I think if you read N3rull's sig you'll see why he feels so passionately about M2TW failing's and he's entitled to his opinions. Indeed on many points I & many others would agree that the 'vanilla' release was a very poor product.

I have been playing TW games since Shogun. Loved the first two games and played them to death. Played RTW a lot but was aware that it had some significant failings and started using mods for the first time. Played M2TW for about a week when it was first released, couldn't stomach the passive AI bug and only returned to playing when the mods & patch had sorted it out.

In short the TW offerings have been getting less & less polished on each subsequent release due in no doubt to the pressures of profit, finance & deadlines.

[N3rull]

Whenever I post, I answer the thread. That most threads I come upon are about or strongly related to this game's many bugs is not my fault.
This thread is strictly about the game's flaws and the author asks if it's the CA's fault or the SEGA's fault. As a not-yet-banned user I feel I have the right to elaborate.

The reason I didn't GTFO yet is because I feel someone has to stand up. CA has to notice it isn't all as pink as they see it. I tried mailing them, commenting posts on their blog and visiting totalwat.org forum. Even my most kind suggestions were cut out and not listened to.

After all, there are few things I'd love to see in this industy more than a really fixed Medieval 2. Seriously. I've been a fan since the release of Shogun and I feel CA went wrong. If the upcoming patch is released and it fixes at least 80% of the bug battalion, I'll be a new person I swear. And not a single spark is gonna be left of my today's flame-throwing.

So far, as long as I see a topics called "Laying the Blame", I'll keep adding my 2 cents. If you don't like reading such threads, do not.

Respect.

[shoshenq]

Harry thank you for summing up my thought. I too have started the series since Shogun TW and have seen the release quality gradually decrease. The most infuriating point imho is the fact that CA seems to consider the campaign as a mere "context" to 3d battles while it could and should be much much more, with a real diplomacy and real economy...also their focus on graphics over gameplay is disappointing as well as the largely dumbed down difficulty level (vh/vh is really not that hard in vanilla) but hey at least there are mods such as DLV to compensate.

I started gaming hardcore in '89 and the scene has drastically changed since then, gaming became a BIG business, long gone are the days where it was a craft of love, but at least my generation and I did live thru that golden age, and to be frank, this era of big money comes with its own set of rewards.

Btw I barely speak english in RL, so please excuse me for my limited vocabulary

[Mythlacar]

Posting in a forum for the sole point of bashing the people who made what the forum is about is pretty much the definition of trolling, and yes I did read his signature.

My point is any rational human being, when faced with a game he doesnt like from a company he is a fan of, wouldn't run around the forum for the game he doesnt like, bashing it.

I don't like the bible, but I am not on a christian website pointing out all the flaws and saying King James is an arse am I?

[shoshenq]

fishy comparison imho lol

edit: btw fanboy vs troll is an eternal struggle, so dont expect to win :p

[Mythlacar]

Acually its a rather good comparison, but if you wish I shall use another.

I love Bioware, but I did not like Mass Effect, once again I'm not in a Mass Effect forum either.

[shoshenq]

ok I got your point, in fact I never go to a game's forum when I dont play that game. But maybe the guy's just a disgruntled fan ? I am new to this forum as you can see and dont know who the notorious "trolls" are so I'm gonna stfu from now on

[N3rull]

I don't think you get the point Mythlacar.

I hate Call of Duty. But I don't rant on its forums - I don't care.
I dislike Medal of Honor. I don't rant on its forums.
I liked Commandos 1 2 3, but dislike the newest release. But I don't really care that much.
I Loved Settlers 2 3 4, but S5 and S6 suck. But not because they are done crappily, but because the whole idea for them was flawed. I can do nothing about that, so I won't go ranting there.

But Medieval 2 had a very good idea, was very well on its way to glory, but what we got is a beta version. All M2 needs to be great is a patch! A well done, seriously treated patch. 2 months of solid work and voila, N3rull's shut up forever.
THAT's why I'm that mad. Because we're >< this close to having a superb game, while what we have is crap.

[Mythlacar]

I dont think you get MY point.

Do you honestly think your whining on a forum is going to get CA to release a patch posthaste because the almighty N3rull is unhappy? As far as I know most of the points of contention with the game are solved by either a mod, or a combination of them. Try Lands To Conquer or something, but don't sit around being a pain in the arse of us who DO enjoy the game.

If you really do not like what was done with the game, instead of sitting around reading the forum and posting your whinefests about CA, learn to mod. Then, take your newfound knowledge and do what millions have done before you, mod the game to fix the areas you dislike and play it.

If you don't want to do that either, go play one of the games you DO like.

[N3rull]

Just when I wanted to mod one thing that drives me mad, i.e. archers/crossbows shooting speed proportion, I was taught it can't be fixed, because it depends on animations and stuff that is hardcoded, period.

Not everything can be fixed by mods.

And I don't thing it's the community's part to make a game playable, but the developer's. Does anyone pay a modder for his mod? No. Do you pay for the game? YEAH. You have a right to expect something from the devs, don't you.

[Mythlacar]

No acually, you do not have a right to expect anything more than what they said.

Did they say it would be perfect? Did they say there would be no bugs at launch? Where in the TOS of the game does it say "You have the full right for our game to be perfect to all of your expectations"?

Companies are around to make money, not satisfy your whims. To my knowledge this is how the system works. You as a customer have the right not to buy it, and that is all.

[N3rull]

No acually, you do not have a right to expect anything more than what they said.

Medieval II: Total War offer complete warfare experience, with realistic battle mechanics and historical accuracy.

It's the fourth sentence in the Game's Manual, after the table of contents. Boom headshot?

Now really, let's not go into the law terms of what I have a right to expect and what not. Did creative assembly say "Hello customers, we're here for your money with a brand new M2:TW"? No, they said

The Creative Assembly
The Creative Assembly is a leading computer games developer based in Sussex in the UK, with an Australian office in Brisbane. Creative Assembly is focused on producing quality games, reliably, efficiently. With award-winning titles like Rome: Total War to our credit, we think we've shown we know a little something about making great games that people want to play.

BOOM HEADSHOT.

Now let's get over this, because I'm not here to make you hate me or make you hate the game. I don't flame up people who say "Oh I love Medieval 2 :* :* :* ". I'm just an impatient and disappointed person who wants to talk about the game and help wherever he can. Seriously, as in here I didn't make the screens for the sake of flaming the game. And I bumped this topic because I wanted to help out the users who recently mentioned having money problems in game.
But I'm not going to show false satisfaction of this game as long as it is not fixed.


An important PS. I'm ready to discuss this with you Mythlacar via PMs because this here is just turning to spam and Harry's gonna lose patience soon. Let's just say I'm a troll and you hate me and leave it this way, at least for the public.

[mrcrusty]

Yeesh. What a pointless arguement.

N3rull is disappointed and disgruntled (rightfully so, I resintalled Med 2 last week after taking a break from Oblivion, played Vanilla... dear god it is fun for about 4 turns on the campaign.) I doubt he aggressively hates CA or w/e. Besides, take a trip to Bethesda's official forums. The entire Fallout section is filled with people who think Bethesda ruined Fallout (despite the fact that the game isn't even finished yet, let alone a release date), it makes this "disgruntled hate" look like hugs and kisses.

As for the OP, all of the bugs ingame are CA's fault. Sega didn't make the game, CA did.

What the problem is that CA's probably would've done a much better job had they been given more freedom and less time restraints with the game.

It is more or less the same situation as KOTOR 2. Obsidian got wtfpwned by Lucasarts and the game suffered heavily. Story, characters, atmosphere, everything trumped KOTOR 1 but since they weren't able to finish the game on their terms, it is inferior to KOTOR 1 in many ways.

[N3rull]

Yeesh. What a pointless arguement.

Indeed. I think that's the first time we'll all agree, even Myth

N3rull is disappointed and disgruntled (rightfully so, I resintalled Med 2 last week after taking a break from Oblivion, played Vanilla... dear god it is fun for about 4 turns on the campaign.) I doubt he aggressively hates CA or w/e.

If they release the patch and it makes the game as good as it should be, I'll be their biggest fan... until they do the same with Empire:TW (which I believe they will not).

Besides, take a trip to Bethesda's official forums. The entire Fallout section is filled with people who think Bethesda ruined Fallout (despite the fact that the game isn't even finished yet, let alone a release date), it makes this "disgruntled hate" look like hugs and kisses.

I'm not that sort of scumbag. I'm a Starcraft fan like hell, and I'm terrified of what I've seen about Starcraft II. Especially the Thor thing. But I'm not gonna comment anything as long as the game's in production. Where's the point in that.

Oh and

As for the OP, all of the bugs ingame are CA's fault. Sega didn't make the game, CA did.

As he said. ;p
ok,ok I'll keep my mouth shut from now on. At least here

[Harry Lime]

As long as it remains civil, without personal attacks, I'm perfectly willing to let this debate continue. After all that's what Internet forums are for. Everyone has a right to voice their opinion as long as it remains in the Terms of Service & I'm told it's very good for the blood pressure.

[eggthief]

Why would they even have to make the game good? They're the only one who makes "realistic" historic war games and they got a complete monopoly on it, what else would we have to play "You hit me, and I hit you till one of our hp bars is down" aka age of empires.

[Mythlacar]

Mm starcraft II..

Anywho, I concur its time to let this one die, twasn't going anywhere anywho

Do try to taper down on the outright CA bashing though ;-)