Elephants and Carthage - Peltast Pointers

[GustaiveTW]

Hello again!

Ok, so forgive me ... alllllllll the campaigns I ran in RTW I never had to mess with Carthage. Scippii always took them out. And when I would play RTR, I would get to a point where my game would just CTD everytime I started so I would always just walk away form the game for a while.

So now is my first experience with them ... I need some pointers.

First off, they fight very wild. They make great use of missle cavalry and each major stack I go against has 5 - 20 elephants in them. I have read scorpions are good against them but the hulking beasties seem to fast for my scorps.

I also read javelins are effective but my question is: Is there a unit better than others? For me, Velites are too difficult to use so far from Italy (unless I want to build a huge transport fleet) so I use local skirmishers. The Numidian Cavalry (I think) can unload all their ammo and take out 1 or 2 .. and my cohorts will get another few ... but it just seems that the other locals can't even dent them.

I try to wheel around behind them but then the Berber Javelin men will take them out or the Horse Skirmishers will. I tried cavalry to chase the mounted javelin men but they get lead into nasty spearmen. I can avoid the spearmen usually but that means I have to break pursuit.

And the Berbers .. forget it. Unless it's my general or Civilian Equites, my cavalry will become afraid at the sheer number of Berbers. Carthage usually has like 240 of them (2 units of 120) in 3 sperate places.

Ugh.

I got my rear end totally handed to me one one fight and have had VERY tough battles elsewhere.

One thing I haven't tried is archers and flaming ammo. But again ... to get the Crecians over to Africa would require me to build up an expensive fleet .. otherwise they are doomed to pirates or the billion little boats Greece, Gaul and Carthage have all over the place.

[Brusilov]

It's a combined operation that you need.

Use slingers to take out their missile troops and they can also deal with the light cavalry/skirmishers. I don't know what your army composition is but I tend to change mine to pack more slingers when I hit some of the Carthage or Horse Archer armies. Slingers have better range than archers with the possible exception of Cretian Archers.

The Berbers can be quite a shock the first time that you fight them, just the numbers alone. Slingers will take them out though as they're not got a very good defense bonus.

It really doesn't matter what type of javelin troops you use to take down the elephants. Make sure that they have their full compliment of javelins beforehand. As a guide you will need two units of javelins for each elephant unit. If you want to only use them to fire javelins then use local mercenaries. If you want them to have the ability to fight after they have exhausted the javelins then you may need to consider Velites.

Archers are fine to take out elephants. Make sure that they are set to use fire. Again, use mercenaries. Cretian Archers are the best. They can be hired all over Greece and in Asia Minor. I don't know where your empire spans.

The fire arrows can also make sure the elephants run amok. It's better if they do this in their own lines rather than yours.

As Romans your heavy infantry are armed with pila. You can either leave these on fire at will or you can wait for the elephants to approach and then set on fire at will (if your units are not already engaged).

Scorpions and other artillery are fine for taking out elephants if you are fighting a defensive battle. In an offensive battle you will have to bring them up to be able to use them effectively.

If you think the elephants used by Carthage are bad just wait until you meet the armoured elephants that the Seleucids have. They are dealt with using the same principal just more of it.

[GustaiveTW]

Yeah the Cohorts can take a few out np. But the one nastly battle, Carthage had 5 elephant units. 3 towered and 2 african units with like 8 elephants each.

I did not even think of slingers. I am able to recruit Macedonian Slinger now. I will bite the bullet and build a large fleet to bring them and the HORDE of Cretian Archers I have in Greece.

Man I hate boats though. My 60 against their 30? Lose. My 15 against their 40? Win ... wha?

[Brusilov]

If you are Roman and the reforms have not kicked in you can use funditores.

You should be able to train Gallic slingers. I use these to replace funditores in my post Marian legions.

[morteduzionism]

For me, Velites are too difficult to use so far from Italy (unless I want to build a huge transport fleet)

Why? Do you control Lilybaeum, Sicily? Can't you deposit forces to Africa and return the ship to the Lilybaeum port and still have movement points?

That's how I do it.

I use single unit of Biremes as transport ships. I have a separate fleet for tactical operations.

Use a unit of Biremes to transport troops from Latium to Sicily(Messana). Walk the troops across Sicily to the Lilybaeum port. Ship them to Africa. If you have the Bireme waiting at the Port of Rome you should be able to get troops to Africa in no more than two turns possibly one.

Doing it this way you only have to have one or two tactical fleets(4 Quinq.; 1 Corvus Quinq.) and when you need to send troops somewhere far use the task force(TF) to scout the area first and to destroy any threats. Then bring the transport ship right up beside the task force...rinse/repeat until you're at your destination. The important thing is to not send your TF to far ahead of the transport ships. Before moving the TF see exactly how far the transport ship can travel and keep the TF within those limits.

I try to wheel around behind them but then the Berber Javelin men will take them out or the Horse Skirmishers will. I tried cavalry to chase the mounted javelin men but they get lead into nasty spearmen. I can avoid the spearmen usually but that means I have to break pursuit.

And the Berbers .. forget it. Unless it's my general or Civilian Equites, my cavalry will become afraid at the sheer number of Berbers. Carthage usually has like 240 of them (2 units of 120) in 3 sperate places.

Ugh.

I got my rear end totally handed to me one one fight and have had VERY tough battles elsewhere.

One thing I haven't tried is archers and flaming ammo.

YOU SHOULD KEEP YOUR MAIN BATTLE LINE AS FAR AWAY AS POSSIBLE UNTIL THE ELEPHANTS ARE DEAD!

I'd suggest you try taking the elephants out as early as possible. How you do that depends on whether you're attacking or defending.

When attacking, you may have to divide your forces. Create a force of skirmishers and cavalry* and group them(select group button) with skirmishers in front. Use this force to flank Carthages' line(wide but not too wide), your objective is to entice the elephants to attack this force. If Carthage doesn't attack with the elephants then run this force back to your line and try again.

If they attack with a combination of elephants and some other unit(s) use the skirmishers to attack the elephants and try and get the other unit(s) to chase your cavalry back to your line in order to be killed. Having a battle line waiting with 'fire-at-will' on helps.

Skirmishers vs. elephants = dead elephants

The benifit of this tactic is that the majority of this skirmish is taking place either behind Carthages lines or far off to the flank. In either case it's away from your line so if the elephants go berserk they can do it off in the boonies somewhere. Better yet, they'll turn around and run back into Carthages lines.

The danger is that while the elephants and your skirmishers are fighting Carthage may send horse cavalry after your skirmishers. If the skirmishers can manage to kill the elephants prior to being overtaken by horse cavalry I consider that a fair sacrifice.

When defending, the ultimate goal is the same. Isolate the elephants. The most important thing to remember doesn't change either; keep your army away from the elephants!

Group your army together in the formation you want to fight in. Group the skirmishers(since elephants are on the field you may want to make them into solid blocks)...

That reminds me, how many skirmishers do you use? I use 4(2 Velites; 2 Italic Velites)

group the skirmishers in separate groups of two each, keeping them in the front. Keep the elephants in site. In my experiences more often than not the elephants lead the charge. If they approach with the battle line and the elephants in the rear use the tactic I mentioned for attacking but if the elephants charge first...that's the best scenario.

Hopefully you haven't gotten your main battle line too close. As soon as you see the elephants moving(they're fast) command your main army to fall back(click the group and put the footprint so it makes the army reform straight back-distancing themselves fromt the elephants) and attack the elephants with your skirmishers.

Don't forget to support the skirmishers against horse cavalry only! If they[skirmishers] are attacked by infantry it's your decision if you want to send a unit of your infantry near those elephants to help. I'd say don't do it, but it's your call.

Keep an eye on the elephants! If they make another move toward your army move them back again. Once the elephants are dead, simply wait on the rest of the Carthaginian army to get to you...Roman infantry vs. Carthaginian infantry shouldn't be anything to be concerned over.

If done properly your losses, to this point, should only be among easily replaced skirmishers. If really done properly your skirmishers may still have javaelins left and can attack some of Carthages javelin soldiers(forcing them to use them before they get to your lines)

*Cavalry. Which cavalry you use as a decoy really depends on who you're facing. If you're going to be facing a faction that's using alot of heavy cavalry you may want to use light cavalry as the decoy. Since they should be able to outrun other heavy cavalry(drawing them to your lines to be killed) If the enemy is using alot of light cavalry you can use heavy cavalry, if they send light cavalry out to attack your skirmishers use the heavy cavalry to kill them.

The only time I worry about elephants is when I mess up and let them get too close. The above tactics work great for me maybe you can use something from them in your battles.

[Mythos_Ruler]

One time I was playing an online match with RTW:Vanilla. The enemy was the Seleucids, with a bunch of elephants. I was Macedonians. Since the other guy chose Seleucids, I knew he'd go elephants, so I went 50 percent archers and skirmishers, and the other 10 cards went to pikemen. At the very beginning I set all my Cretan archers to fire arrows and bombarded the enemy elephants. I also rushed them with my skirmishers and pelted them with javelins. In NO time, before the enemy had a chance to come into contact with my defensive line of pikemen, the elephants had run amok and were smashing their own lines. In the meanwhile I set my phalanx battalions into a defensive arc, successfully fending off the enemy cataphracts on the wings. It was a total rout and one of the few times in RTW:Vanilla as Macedonians I managed to defeat a Seleucid player. Funny part was at the beginning when we chose factions the other guy snickered and said "good luck, you'll need it!" when I chose Macedonians. Apparently he had gotten used to "pwnin nubs" who use the Macks. Once his elephants began to run amok in the battle his tune changed.

[morteduzionism]

At the very beginning I set all my Cretan archers to fire arrows and bombarded the enemy elephants. I also rushed them with my skirmishers and pelted them with javelins. In NO time, before the enemy had a chance to come into contact with my defensive line of pikemen, the elephants had run amok and were smashing their own lines.

Textbook tactics against elephants!

[Brusilov]

Funny part was at the beginning when we chose factions the other guy snickered and said "good luck, you'll need it!" when I chose Macedonians. Apparently he had gotten used to "pwnin nubs" who use the Macks. Once his elephants began to run amok in the battle his tune changed.

I thought that was so funny!

It's just a shame you can't see the effects on the other player. At least they didn't "throw their toys out of the pram" (or "spat the dummy") over it. Or did they?